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Last Post 16 May 2014 06:55 PM by  mad026
BMW 3-Series Moved to F Street?
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TomOttaway
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09 Feb 2014 10:20 PM

    As I read through the 2014 draft rules it appears that the BMW 3-series (2004 BMW 330Ci ZHP in particular) has been moved from D Stock to F Street.  Is this accurate?

    Thanks,

    Tom

    The Nebulizer
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    10 Feb 2014 09:39 AM

    Yes.

    The idea is to keep it with RWD cars. While not an ideal classing for the non-M 3-series, it is a better option than staying in DStreet where the AWD cars are expected to dominate on street tires.

    Kirk
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    10 Feb 2014 09:57 AM

    But but but.... The incredibly accurate PAX says that FS(treet) is faster than DS(treet)!

     

    Another ZHP owner here who copes with sarcasm, which really helps no one. 

     

     

    jcp907
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    10 Feb 2014 10:51 AM
    And, you will be bumped to BS if no one else shows up in FS. S2000 and C5 territory
    CSP21
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    10 Feb 2014 10:53 AM
    Posted By Jcp907 on 10 Feb 2014 10:51 AM
    And, you will be bumped to BS if no one else shows up in FS. S2000 and C5 territory

    Is that a regional thing? While that bump order is in the rulebook, I can't think of anywhere nationally its actually used (In Pros you'd be in Bump1).

    jcp907
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    10 Feb 2014 11:00 AM
    I've been bumped to BS once this year already (and won!), maybe 2-3 times last year, that I recall. I've never been to anything but a regional event.
    kyoo
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    10 Feb 2014 11:22 AM
    would ES be a bad fit for it? That's pure miata territory though right?
    drdisque
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    10 Feb 2014 03:24 PM
    330Ci ZHP should be competitive in F-Street. What FS cars in particular are you scared of? I'm a new 135i owner and I don't think the Mustangs have anything on it on street tires. M3's maybe, but I think in an autocross setting on street tires the M3's advantage over the 330i ZHP, 335i and 135i isn't huge.
    mrazny
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    11 Feb 2014 01:16 PM
    Wheel Width for the M3 (e9x) is nice. biggest problem with the 135 in street form is the 7.5" fronts. (and the next to nothing camber)
    jcp907
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    11 Feb 2014 01:56 PM

    9" front and 10" rear is allowed with the ZCP Package on the 11-13 E92 M3.  That could be a 275/295 tire package, if not 295/295.  With 400 hp on tap and @-1.5 degrees of camber, I am thinking it's going to be tough to beat.

    They are pricey, though. 

    drdisque
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    11 Feb 2014 03:21 PM
    I do think that that particular M3 isn't a good fit for FS. But the chances that I'll actually encounter one are slim to none. We'll see if there are any at National events. Rare $60k cars (used) generally don't see many autocrosses.

    It's sort of a "if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound" problem. If a car is a potential overdog but nobody actually runs one, is it a problem?
    mrazny
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    11 Feb 2014 05:24 PM
    Posted By drdisque on 11 Feb 2014 03:21 PM
    I do think that that particular M3 isn't a good fit for FS. But the chances that I'll actually encounter one are slim to none. We'll see if there are any at National events. Rare $60k cars (used) generally don't see many autocrosses.

    It's sort of a "if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound" problem. If a car is a potential overdog but nobody actually runs one, is it a problem?

    at least 2 nationally, though if I recall that was with R's not streets.


    The Nebulizer
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    12 Feb 2014 10:45 AM
    Posted By drdisque on 11 Feb 2014 03:21 PM
    I do think that that particular M3 isn't a good fit for FS. But the chances that I'll actually encounter one are slim to none. We'll see if there are any at National events. Rare $60k cars (used) generally don't see many autocrosses.

    It's sort of a "if a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound" problem. If a car is a potential overdog but nobody actually runs one, is it a problem?

    Is there anything unique to the ZCP? I know different shocks, but that isn't relavent for Street (unless maybe you have to change out the electric controls/ECU?). You can buy the lower springs and wider wheels. Is there more to it to make a Street class legal clone? If that is it, I'd say there is a very good chance we will see several of these. non-ZCP e9x M3s go for low 30s now.

    Is it a good fit for FS? I'd say it is a good fit. It has benefits and detractions over the smaller, lighter, less powerful e46 M3. I'd think they are pretty similar in the end. And, I think both match up well with the classic FStock leading Mustangs.

    The big question is the new M3/M4. I think that probably has to go to AS. But, my real fear is what the cones will do to those bumpers.

     

    jcp907
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    12 Feb 2014 02:42 PM
    Posted By The Nebulizer on 12 Feb 2014 10:45 AM

    Is there anything unique to the ZCP? I know different shocks, but that isn't relavent for Street (unless maybe you have to change out the electric controls/ECU?). You can buy the lower springs and wider wheels. Is there more to it to make a Street class legal clone? If that is it, I'd say there is a very good chance we will see several of these. non-ZCP e9x M3s go for low 30s now.

    Is it a good fit for FS? I'd say it is a good fit. It has benefits and detractions over the smaller, lighter, less powerful e46 M3. I'd think they are pretty similar in the end. And, I think both match up well with the classic FStock leading Mustangs.

    The big question is the new M3/M4. I think that probably has to go to AS. But, my real fear is what the cones will do to those bumpers.

     

    First, with the wheel advantage of the ZCP, I think the torque makes up for the weight difference compared to the E46.  I also think FS is the best fit for this car and believe that it will be a class favorite, despite the expense. It's important to point out that the low 30s for the E92s that you see are for 08-10.  ZCP wasn't an option during those years, and the retrofit is not legal in the class because of that.  A used '11 E92 ZCP is around $45-50k...15-20k more than a new '14 Mustang. 

    As mentioned, the retrofit kits are out there for the 08-10 M3 for the ZCP Package.  (Not legal in FS for the 08-10 though). But, if you have a non ZCP 11-13 you can probably use the conversion from the 08-10.  Electronic reprogramming will be the sticking point if you don't have a decent shop/dealer nearby.  I find it odd that BMW requires a VIN be submitted to order replacement springs.  Speculation is that they use different springs for different options.  But, the part numbers are floating around the web space.  Finally, pricing for ZCP vs non ZCP isn't significantly different-they are all over 40k!

    Because of all of this, and my feeling that this class is suitable for the E92 ZCP, I do wonder if it makes sense to have the standard 3 series in the same class (sorry to hijack the thread-I am fascinated with the E92 though!).
    The Nebulizer
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    12 Feb 2014 05:58 PM
    Posted By Jcp907 on 12 Feb 2014 02:42 PM

    First, with the wheel advantage of the ZCP, I think the torque makes up for the weight difference compared to the E46.  I also think FS is the best fit for this car and believe that it will be a class favorite, despite the expense. It's important to point out that the low 30s for the E92s that you see are for 08-10.  ZCP wasn't an option during those years, and the retrofit is not legal in the class because of that.  A used '11 E92 ZCP is around $45-50k...15-20k more than a new '14 Mustang. 

    As mentioned, the retrofit kits are out there for the 08-10 M3 for the ZCP Package.  (Not legal in FS for the 08-10 though). But, if you have a non ZCP 11-13 you can probably use the conversion from the 08-10.  Electronic reprogramming will be the sticking point if you don't have a decent shop/dealer nearby.  I find it odd that BMW requires a VIN be submitted to order replacement springs.  Speculation is that they use different springs for different options.  But, the part numbers are floating around the web space.  Finally, pricing for ZCP vs non ZCP isn't significantly different-they are all over 40k!

    Because of all of this, and my feeling that this class is suitable for the E92 ZCP, I do wonder if it makes sense to have the standard 3 series in the same class (sorry to hijack the thread-I am fascinated with the E92 though!).
    Torque sees diminishing returns with street tires. I don't see the torque advantage of the e9x as a big threat over the e46. The e46 can also run 18x8,18x9.5 which is more tire/torque than e9x and better tire/weight - at least for the rear. e9x has better suspension design though. The e46 will suffer primarily from understeer. Should be a close match up.

    mball
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    18 Feb 2014 09:06 AM
    I test drove an E92 M3 yesterday and I think that it is going to be the car to have in FS if you can afford it. I can say that it is vastly superior my IS300 (also in FS now) and better than the E36 M3s that I used to have. I just wish that I had $50k to buy one and then another $5k (at least) to prep it.
    a67ssrs
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    08 Apr 2014 11:06 PM

    How did this thread devolve into M3 talk?

     The point is, the e46 non-M has been relegated to cannon fodder. It has no LSD, 95 less horsepower, skinnier wheels, and no fancy SMG. Doomed.

    Why didn't they move it to GS with the e36? It may have a bit more power and wider tires, but it is considerably heavier and wider, and has less favorable front camber.

    I have already written the SEB about it, I suggest you do too.

    Chris04
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    09 Apr 2014 09:28 AM
    The M3 talk is wierd, especially that personally I feel the new 1le running 305's on all four corners will be very hard to beat. Comes with 20x10 fronts and 20x11 rears. Drop that down to a 19 and slap on 305/30 R-s3 and it will be a fun ride. The car is 3850 and equipmed very well from the factory. With that much rubber underneath it, it will be a contender now that everyone is running on street tires.
    Kirk
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    09 Apr 2014 09:34 AM
    Posted By a67ssrs on 08 Apr 2014 11:06 PM

    How did this thread devolve into M3 talk?

     The point is, the e46 non-M has been relegated to cannon fodder. It has no LSD, 95 less horsepower, skinnier wheels, and no fancy SMG. Doomed.

    Why didn't they move it to GS with the e36? It may have a bit more power and wider tires, but it is considerably heavier and wider, and has less favorable front camber.

    I have already written the SEB about it, I suggest you do too.

    I tend to agree (I have an e46 so I am biased though).  

    I don't understand the logic.  The rear wheel drive cars (like ours) were taken out of DStreet presumably because they could not keep up with the AWD cars on street tires.  

    To fix that, they were put into a class that, based on PAX, is faster than DStreet  (shrug).

    The Nebulizer
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    09 Apr 2014 10:09 AM
    Posted By Kirk on 09 Apr 2014 09:34 AM
    Posted By a67ssrs on 08 Apr 2014 11:06 PM

    How did this thread devolve into M3 talk?

     The point is, the e46 non-M has been relegated to cannon fodder. It has no LSD, 95 less horsepower, skinnier wheels, and no fancy SMG. Doomed.

    Why didn't they move it to GS with the e36? It may have a bit more power and wider tires, but it is considerably heavier and wider, and has less favorable front camber.

    I have already written the SEB about it, I suggest you do too.

    I tend to agree (I have an e46 so I am biased though).  

    I don't understand the logic.  The rear wheel drive cars (like ours) were taken out of DStreet presumably because they could not keep up with the AWD cars on street tires.  

    To fix that, they were put into a class that, based on PAX, is faster than DStreet  (shrug).

    Classing is not based on PAX. The jury is still out on if DStreet will be faster than FStreet. I would not be surprised if that were the case, but I suspect they are very close.

    The non-M e46s were not winning DStock and they would be even farther back in DStreet given the 2wd disadvantage. The non-M's have clear disadvantages over the Ms in power and wheel width, but they do have some minor advantages too in lower weight. I doubt anyone thinks they are the cars to have in the class, but they weren't the car to have in DS either. At least they are grouped with similar cars by going to FStreet.

    GStreet would likely be too soft for the non-Ms. It would change the landscape too much - which is not the direction Street is trying to go at this point.

    Street is still in its infant stage. I expect there will be class merging in the near future. I'd imagine DS and FS merging is a real consideration given similar performance and modest entries in each.

    In the end competitiveness wasn't taken away from the non-Ms, it was just shifted a bit. If you want the car to be competitive, consider STX or better yet DSP. The car has classes it can win in.  

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