Sunoco 468x60 Banner
PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 16 May 2014 06:55 PM by  mad026
BMW 3-Series Moved to F Street?
 35 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 2 of 2 << < 12
Author Messages
mrazny
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:462


--
09 Apr 2014 11:15 AM
I'd also recommend in your letters to the SEB to avoid things like "you guys &*@#ed up! The car is Doomed!" Stick to some dimensions and comparisons. And if possible cite events that demonstrate performance with hopefully some known drivers. If you have a larger demand base than just you and your car make that note in the letter.
a67ssrs
New Member
New Member
Posts:21


--
09 Apr 2014 04:56 PM
That sounds like great advice, mrazny. Thank you, I'll see what I can come up with.
Kirk
New Member
New Member
Posts:50


--
07 May 2014 01:56 PM
Posted By The Nebulizer on 09 Apr 2014 10:09 AM 

Classing is not based on PAX. The jury is still out on if DStreet will be faster than FStreet. I would not be surprised if that were the case, but I suspect they are very close.

The non-M e46s were not winning DStock and they would be even farther back in DStreet given the 2wd disadvantage. The non-M's have clear disadvantages over the Ms in power and wheel width, but they do have some minor advantages too in lower weight. I doubt anyone thinks they are the cars to have in the class, but they weren't the car to have in DS either. At least they are grouped with similar cars by going to FStreet.

GStreet would likely be too soft for the non-Ms. It would change the landscape too much - which is not the direction Street is trying to go at this point.

Street is still in its infant stage. I expect there will be class merging in the near future. I'd imagine DS and FS merging is a real consideration given similar performance and modest entries in each.

In the end competitiveness wasn't taken away from the non-Ms, it was just shifted a bit. If you want the car to be competitive, consider STX or better yet DSP. The car has classes it can win in.  

 

Re: "Classing is not based on PAX".  Yep, I agree.  I understand PAX to be a measure of relative speed between classes.  This year FS is faster than DS.  I used PAX to support my statement of "is faster".  I don't expect cars to be classed based on PAX.  I could be wrong about what PAX is though...


I also agree that the moved DS RWD cars would not hold up well to the DS AWD cars.  I think moving the RWD was the right thing to do.  However, being in one of those RWD cars, I do wish that some were put in a slower class.  I realize that would take more work and analysis for those guys, and the pay sucks for the job, so I do understand it.  But I, selfishly, would still like to have have seen some cars moved to GS.  I feel some of them (IS250, e46, Crossfire, Lincoln LS v8) compare well to the faster cars in GS like the Genesis Coupe and SRT-4.  At least better than the faster cars in FS.


To educate myself, I did do some looking to see what is typically done with the "tuned" version of some cars to see how they were classed.  Seems to be a mix, but leaning to the "different class" side.

- Audi TT, Audi TTS - different class
- Mustang GT, Boss 302 - different class
- Camaro, Camaro ZL1 - different class
- Viper, Viper ACR - different class
- WRX, WRX STI - different class
- BMW e36, e36 M3 - different class
- BMW e30, e30 M3 - different class
- BMW 1 series, 1M - different class 
- Mazda MX-5, MS-R - different class
- S2000, S2000 CR - different class
- Solstice, Solstice GXP - different class
- Cobalt, Cobalt SS - different class
- Mazda 3, Mazdaspeed 3 - different class
- Genesis Coupe 4, Genesis 6 - different class

Here are some that are in the same class
- BMW e46, e46 M3 - same class
- Mustang V6, GT, Shelby GT - same class
- Lexus IS, Lexus ISF - same class

Just a quick check for myself, not exhaustive by any means.

I did see the response to the letter written in Fast-track (wait till next year).  I will do the same.  I've been running a different car in ST this year and really enjoying it.

Neb, if you're going to the National Tour in Lincoln in a few weeks I can bring out my e46 ZHP and we can compare it to your M3.  We may both learn something new about the cars.

 

CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
07 May 2014 02:01 PM
The way F Street contains contradictions is not lost on the SAC. We often talk about how to deal with this, but we really need to see some relative speeds of things on street tires before knowing how to go.

In the 2.5 years I ran DS on street tires, I don't recall any FS street car ever raw timing me nor do I remember it happening at any national event thought he pool for FS RTR cars was pretty thin.
Kirk
New Member
New Member
Posts:50


--
07 May 2014 02:06 PM
Posted By Tom Reynolds on 07 May 2014 02:01 PM
The way F Street contains contradictions is not lost on the SAC. We often talk about how to deal with this, but we really need to see some relative speeds of things on street tires before knowing how to go.

In the 2.5 years I ran DS on street tires, I don't recall any FS street car ever raw timing me nor do I remember it happening at any national event thought he pool for FS RTR cars was pretty thin.

Good to hear Tom.  I do appreciate the effort you and your team put into this.

Maybe I'll bring out my e46 to the bigger events and show ya'll how slow it is .

CSBM5
New Member
New Member
Posts:57


--
07 May 2014 08:36 PM
How soon will the 2015 Mustang and 2015 M3/M4 be classed?  I assume these will become F-street cars?
CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
07 May 2014 10:09 PM
Just before or at release, we tend to time it for that once we see actual production specs.
CSBM5
New Member
New Member
Posts:57


--
08 May 2014 07:18 AM
Posted By Tom Reynolds on 07 May 2014 10:09 PM
Just before or at release, we tend to time it for that once we see actual production specs.

Thanks for the reply Tom.  Deliveries are imminent on the new M3/M4 as production has started.  M3post board members are confirmed for mid-late June European Delivery, and also cars should be arriving at US dealers by late June/early July.  All the production level specifications are announced by BMW and posted on the web site (www.bmwusa.com).

 It's going to be very interesting where the '15 Mustang and '15 M3/M4 show up class-wise.  Not sure about the Mustang, but in the M3's case, although it's a bit wider and longer than the prior car, it has a massive increase in area under the power curve due to turbocharging, and peak power is underrated (similar to the M5), and it is supposedly about 150lbs lighter than the E90/92 M3.

CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
08 May 2014 08:55 AM
Thanks, I'll bring up the M's up on our call tonight.

 

Remember you can always write a letter requesting to have a car classed. www.sebscca.com

CSBM5
New Member
New Member
Posts:57


--
08 May 2014 09:22 AM
Posted By Tom Reynolds on 08 May 2014 08:55 AM
Thanks, I'll bring up the M's up on our call tonight.

 

Remember you can always write a letter requesting to have a car classed. www.sebscca.com

Done. Thanks!

Z3papa
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:525


--
09 May 2014 11:25 AM
I don't think the new M3/M2 which is a bigger version of the E90 335 with some performance software added but slightly lighter is going to make an earth shattering change to FS.
CSBM5
New Member
New Member
Posts:57


--
09 May 2014 12:52 PM
Posted By Z3papa on 09 May 2014 11:25 AM
I don't think the new M3/M2 which is a bigger version of the E90 335 with some performance software added but slightly lighter is going to make an earth shattering change to FS.

The M3/M4 is a totally new engine, read about the S55 as while related to the N55, it's a new and dramatically different beast.  BMW quotes 1km times similar to the F10 M5, meaning the M3/4 is expected to trap the 1/4 in ~120mph.  The LSD is a new design, suspension totally different, etc, etc.  From talking to a greatly experienced driver I respect who has driven the F80 M3 on the track a good bit already, it's clearly going to surprise those thinking it's just "another M-car".  That's his opinion.  We shall see...
mad026
New Member
New Member
Posts:2


--
15 May 2014 01:13 PM

I also agree that the moved DS RWD cars would not hold up well to the DS AWD cars.  I think moving the RWD was the right thing to do.  However, being in one of those RWD cars, I do wish that some were put in a slower class.  I realize that would take more work and analysis for those guys, and the pay sucks for the job, so I do understand it.  But I, selfishly, would still like to have have seen some cars moved to GS.  I feel some of them (IS250, e46, Crossfire, Lincoln LS v8) compare well to the faster cars in GS like the Genesis Coupe and SRT-4.  At least better than the faster cars in FS.


To educate myself, I did do some looking to see what is typically done with the "tuned" version of some cars to see how they were classed.  Seems to be a mix, but leaning to the "different class" side.

- Audi TT, Audi TTS - different class
- Mustang GT, Boss 302 - different class
- Camaro, Camaro ZL1 - different class
- Viper, Viper ACR - different class
- WRX, WRX STI - different class
- BMW e36, e36 M3 - different class
- BMW e30, e30 M3 - different class
- BMW 1 series, 1M - different class 
- Mazda MX-5, MS-R - different class
- S2000, S2000 CR - different class
- Solstice, Solstice GXP - different class
- Cobalt, Cobalt SS - different class
- Mazda 3, Mazdaspeed 3 - different class
- Genesis Coupe 4, Genesis 6 - different class

Here are some that are in the same class
- BMW e46, e46 M3 - same class
- Mustang V6, GT, Shelby GT - same class
- Lexus IS, Lexus ISF - same class

Just a quick check for myself, not exhaustive by any means.

I did see the response to the letter written in Fast-track (wait till next year).  I will do the same.  I've been running a different car in ST this year and really enjoying it.

Neb, if you're going to the National Tour in Lincoln in a few weeks I can bring out my e46 ZHP and we can compare it to your M3.  We may both learn something new about the cars.

 

Thank you Karl! I share your thoughts (and pain) with mine being one of the RWD cars moved to FS in 2014.

Crossfire , Crossfire SRT6 in the same class... Sent several letters and got the same response that the car is properly classed. Really? Picture this: same driver, same level of preparation, 100hp advantage to the SRT6. Which one is faster? Do we really need a jury evaluation to see this just not make sense? By the way, my last letter requesting a classing review was simply ignored.


CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
16 May 2014 08:49 AM
I think one thing that seems to be missed is that not all cars can and will be competitively classed. At some point you have to weigh in things like general desirability, costs, rarity, etc and pick your battles. SRT6 isn't filling any classes and will likely have a more difficult time getting optimum classing than say a FRS/BRZ and even those we struggle to find the right balance. If we took the crossfire non-SRT6 and put it in GS and it runs away with the class, what good does that do? So while it might be obvious a car would be better off in a different class, the destination is tricky and often why the car remains where it is.



CSBM5
New Member
New Member
Posts:57


--
16 May 2014 08:52 AM
Posted By mad026 on 15 May 2014 01:13 PM

Thank you Karl! I share your thoughts (and pain) with mine being one of the RWD cars moved to FS in 2014.

Crossfire , Crossfire SRT6 in the same class... Sent several letters and got the same response that the car is properly classed. Really? Picture this: same driver, same level of preparation, 100hp advantage to the SRT6. Which one is faster? Do we really need a jury evaluation to see this just not make sense? By the way, my last letter requesting a classing review was simply ignored.



I think this type of class placement "problem" has existed off and on through the years, and often it seems like there is no solution (or at least one that is pursued by the SEB).

I was at an event this weekend, running my E90 M3 in F-street, and there was an E90 328i there also.  How can these two cars possibly be in the same class?  The M3 has 414hp, a much better suspension setup, wider wheels front and rear, big brakes and a nice LSD. The 328i has narrow wheels, 230hp, an open diff, etc.  Oh well.  I'd be going crazy if I had to compete in F-street with a 328i against an M3 that just gaps ahead at any chance whether its putting down major power coming off an element or scooting up a straight section or cornering on 275/295 Rivals.

mad026
New Member
New Member
Posts:2


--
16 May 2014 06:55 PM
Posted By Tom Reynolds on 16 May 2014 08:49 AM
I think one thing that seems to be missed is that not all cars can and will be competitively classed. At some point you have to weigh in things like general desirability, costs, rarity, etc and pick your battles. SRT6 isn't filling any classes and will likely have a more difficult time getting optimum classing than say a FRS/BRZ and even those we struggle to find the right balance. If we took the crossfire non-SRT6 and put it in GS and it runs away with the class, what good does that do? So while it might be obvious a car would be better off in a different class, the destination is tricky and often why the car remains where it is.



Looking at the results from 2012 and 2013, at least with me driving the Crossfire non-SRT6, I don't think it would run away with the class. Both years I finished behind the Genesis 2.0T which is still in GS, has similar specs to the Crossfire and it is not running away with the class. Also, the Genesis V6 has similar specs to the SRT6 and is properly classed in FS. All I am asking is some consistency.


You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 2 of 2 << < 12


G-Loc Button Vorshlag 88x31 Button
Sunoco 88x31 Button
SPS 88x31 Button Woodhouse Motorsports

Advertise on SCCAForums.com and reach thousands of visitors per day!

SafeRacer FREE SHIPPING over $99

Shop for Pirelli tires at Tire Rack. blank




Sunoco Bottom 468x60 Banner