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Last Post 05 Apr 2014 05:27 PM by  flatlander937
2014 Classes?
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trippinbillies40
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10 Feb 2014 02:55 PM

    Hi all,

     

    Just wondering if decisions have been made on what the region is going to run for classing in 2014. Specifically:

     -We're running Street and Street-R, yes?

    -If so, are we still running Tire Index?

    -If so, is the tire index based on Street or Street-R rules? Reason for the question: historically I think the tire class required 200tw tires, yes?  Street this year allows 140tw, moving to 200tw in 2015.  Also, cars with OEM tires less than 140TW are allowed to run those tires in Street in regional competition, so will those tires be allowed in tire index?  That will affect Kevin Higgins, as his GT3 comes with 100tw Michelins.

     -Are we running the new CAM class? Methinks we'll see THE Danny Popp out in the blue car if so.  And everyone but Tom will be screwed on pax because of this.

     

    Thanks!

    Z3papa
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    10 Feb 2014 08:27 PM
    Why would you have a Street Tire index when the fact the classes are running on street tires has already been built into the new PAX for 2104? I don't know of any region which has adopted the street classes and still permitted sub 140 tw ratings even if they came stock on a car.
    moxnix
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    10 Feb 2014 10:29 PM
    Posted By Z3papa on 10 Feb 2014 08:27 PM
    I don't know of any region which has adopted the street classes and still permitted sub 140 tw ratings even if they came stock on a car.
    Have you read the 2014 rules?  Specifically section 13.3.C.1?
    KevinHiggins
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    12 Feb 2014 03:48 PM
    The rules (as I read them) indicate that in regional events, cars can run their OEM tires even if those have a lower UTQG rating then 140. Looking at the car classes, I think most of the cars in the new SS class probably fall into the same boat, as many came with a Michelin or Goodyear option tire sporting a UTQG rating of 80 (and some also had a Pirelli/Corsa option with a 60 UTQG).

    Interestingly, some of the cars that were in the old SS class (like the Z06 corvettes) are now in A Stock, so I imagine the issue will be asked for that class, too. (FYI, the 'Vettes that are now in SS include the ZR1's and new Stingrays!)

    For those of us who like to track their cars as well as run solo, but don't want to go the Hoosier or race tire route, it'll help to know that our club's local rules will follow the SCCA regional rules as we go into tire-purchase mode in preparation for April racing! (I'm not planning on running in any National events this year or it'd be a moot point).
    trippinbillies40
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    12 Feb 2014 05:35 PM

    Rules are rules, so if we're holding SCCA sanctioned events (which we are), you can run SS still (Super Street) on the Michelins or Pirellis. 

     

    My question is more towards the tire index question.  Are we keeping it? What are the rules for it this year?

    kyoo
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    12 Feb 2014 07:19 PM
    i know my region is just running an open indexed class for r-comps, and just using street tire classes. not a bad idea IMO
    Z3papa
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    12 Feb 2014 07:23 PM

    Posted By <a href='http://www.sccaforums.com/user-profile/userid/43774' class='af-profile-link'>Kevin.H</a> on 12 Feb 2014 03:48 PM
    The rules (as I read them) indicate that in regional events, cars can run their OEM tires even if those have a lower UTQG rating then 140. Looking at the car classes, I think most of the cars in the new SS class probably fall into the same boat, as many came with a Michelin or Goodyear option tire sporting a UTQG rating of 80 (and some also had a Pirelli/Corsa option with a 60 UTQG).

    Interestingly, some of the cars that were in the old SS class (like the Z06 corvettes) are now in A Stock, so I imagine the issue will be asked for that class, too. (FYI, the 'Vettes that are now in SS include the ZR1's and new Stingrays!)

    For those of us who like to track their cars as well as run solo, but don't want to go the Hoosier or race tire route, it'll help to know that our club's local rules will follow the SCCA regional rules as we go into tire-purchase mode in preparation for April racing! (I'm not planning on running in any National events this year or it'd be a moot point).

    Yes I've read the rule. While regional allowances have been widely provided for, it makes no sense to say classes should run 140 and then allow sub 140 tires regardless of leeway given. Folks want to autocross should start by running within rule sets. It' starts people down the slippery slope when you bend rules by these allowances.
    Z3papa
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    12 Feb 2014 07:23 PM

    Posted By <a href='http://www.sccaforums.com/user-profile/userid/43774' class='af-profile-link'>Kevin.H</a> on 12 Feb 2014 03:48 PM
    The rules (as I read them) indicate that in regional events, cars can run their OEM tires even if those have a lower UTQG rating then 140. Looking at the car classes, I think most of the cars in the new SS class probably fall into the same boat, as many came with a Michelin or Goodyear option tire sporting a UTQG rating of 80 (and some also had a Pirelli/Corsa option with a 60 UTQG).

    Interestingly, some of the cars that were in the old SS class (like the Z06 corvettes) are now in A Stock, so I imagine the issue will be asked for that class, too. (FYI, the 'Vettes that are now in SS include the ZR1's and new Stingrays!)

    For those of us who like to track their cars as well as run solo, but don't want to go the Hoosier or race tire route, it'll help to know that our club's local rules will follow the SCCA regional rules as we go into tire-purchase mode in preparation for April racing! (I'm not planning on running in any National events this year or it'd be a moot point).

    Yes I've read the rule. While regional allowances have been widely provided for, it makes no sense to say classes should run 140 and then allow sub 140 tires regardless of leeway given. Folks want to autocross should start by running within rule sets. It' starts people down the slippery slope when you bend rules by these allowances.
    trippinbillies40
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    13 Feb 2014 12:42 PM
    How is it bending rules when the rules explicitly allow it?
    btschafer
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    15 Feb 2014 12:16 PM
    I don't think our supplemental class rules have ever been published, say, in our supps. Regardless of the decision on the class in question we should include this information in our 2014 supps.
    mister2dood
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    15 Feb 2014 08:14 PM
    Good question Dave...I was assuming there would still be a Tire Index and it would be Street cars, but I didn't know OEM tires were allowed in Street. If it's open for discussion, I think we should settle on 140TW or 200TW. I didn't realize Street allows use of OEM tires (incidentally, my OEM tires are 60TW Yoko A048s).
    trippinbillies40
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    15 Feb 2014 10:57 PM

    I agree. If it were my decision, I would say tire index is based on street pax and requires 200tw or greater. 

     

    But, if it were really up to me, I'd love to see everything cut down to index classes as follows:

    S1: Street, Street R

    S2: Street Prepared, Prepared

    ST: All ST classes

    M: Street Mod and Mod classes

    P: Pro (open index)

    N: Novice (open index)

    L: Ladies (open index)

     

    Maybe someday in the distant future

    KevinHiggins
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    16 Feb 2014 06:16 AM
    FWIW, I applaud the rules as they stand (for regional level events), because the important trend is to return to Solo's accessibility. You want people to be able to come out and try these SCCA events without having to spend a lot of money or substantially modifying their cars to (1) have fun, safely, and (2) be reasonably competitive. I think this is a primary driver for the Street classes. In the SS class, being forced to run 140tw tires would mean having to spend $1000 - $2000 to change from the OEM setup to make your car less performant than its showroom condition.

    Where I can understand some griping is if some car's been classed amongst others that are sold with tires that are so much grippier that it creates a clear advantage. There are ways to handle that if the advantage falls outside of an acceptable bound.
    trippinbillies40
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    25 Feb 2014 12:05 PM

    Shari, Nathan,

     

    Any update on this? Couple people are waiting to make tire purchases based on your response.

    lightisfast
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    25 Feb 2014 09:54 PM
    So my opinion on the TW would be to stick with the SCCA rules. It's a bit weird how they are doing it, but ultimately anyone who wants to be really competitive is going to want to stick to the national rules on the tires for the "street" classes. I don't think we went with the 140 rule last year. Hankook didn't start putting the 200 on the tires until last year and they were still selling the 140 halfway through the year. Either way aren't the toyos the only competitive tire left in that range? Not sure I saw a single person run with the toyo's in the tire index.

    Since, I got home from work at about the time the meeting started, I obviously missed it. Perhaps that was a topic of discussion.
    trippinbillies40
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    26 Feb 2014 10:55 AM

    Right now, the SCCA rulebook says that tires in Street class must be 140tw or greater in 2014, and 200tw or greater in 2015, both for national events. It also states that for regional events, OEM tires are ok (so the Elise and GT3 would be big benefactors of this within the region).

     

    The whole point of the tire index class historically was to provide a place for regional people to play without having to drop money on slicks to be competitive.  The Street class is now around because of the success of many regional "tire" classes.  That having been said, I would love to see the Tire Index class stick around because it groups everyone into one larger class and fosters competition.  The question then becomes what the rules of the tire index class are.  Hypothetically, nothing needs to change, we can mandate 200tw tires.  Personally, I think that's the best idea.  People that want to run street class on their OEM tires will still have that option.  The only subsequent question becomes what pax number you're using for the Tire class, and just the straight up Street class with no adjustment makes the most sense.  

     

    We just need clarification there so Mr. Higgins can decide what tires he wants.

    KevinHiggins
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    26 Feb 2014 11:39 AM
    (Actually, the Elise is no longer around (unless someone besides Robling runs one), and the 'Vettes that used to run SS are now AS (though I think most of them ran Hoosiers, anyway), unless someone's picked up a ZR1 or new Stringray. So I'm not even sure who else will be running Super Street. I may be competing by myself!

    I agree that it's weird that people competing at the national level are put at a disadvantage at regional events unless they invest in additional set(s) of tires.

    At any rate, I like the fact that the new rule allows people to race their OEM-stock car without any mods (especially the requirement for mods that make the car LESS performant!) and have made my tire decision. I'll forgo any national-level events in favor of having better (street) tires for tracking the car!
    lightisfast
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    26 Feb 2014 11:07 PM
    So was last year really restricted to 200? I know for a fact there were old sets of Hankooks around with the 140 rating which is not officially compliant to the 200. Anyways my dad is running the yokohamas with the 180 treadwear. It's not like hes competitive, so that doesn't really matter.

    So really why not stick with the national rules and give everyone another year but make it clear we go to 200 next year.

    As for the stock allowance of OEM tires. The purpose of that rule is pretty obvious. Someone showing up in their bone stock car and getting cast into a field of well prepared competition can be very discouraging. A lot of that leads to people getting fed up and not coming back. The SCCA is realizing this and trying to address some of it in the rules. I think at a minimum that allowance should be a go in our novice class. My opinion would be to continue to allow it in class so long as the car is in showroom stock form. If someones taking full allowances in shocks and wheels then that is obviously not in the spirit of the local allowance of the rule.
    sjfehr
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    27 Feb 2014 06:03 AM

    Those low-TW OEM tires wear out very quickly and don't see to be too many drivers that buy really expensive cars like that and autocross them. (Running joke that Porsche club events don't need course workers because nobody ever hits a cone.) While someone might abuse it, I'm not entirely sure it will be a serious issue (or an issue at all); if it does, you could deal with it on a case-by-case basis.

     

    mister2dood
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    27 Feb 2014 07:50 AM
    Kevin H.,
    At the Cincy level you'll probably see 2 - 3 Elises at most events. I thought I saw that Doug's sold last October or November...at least, there was a very similar one up for sale for about 1 day in Mason (it sold very quickly since his price was low and it had the rare LSD option...I wish I would have known he was considering selling it).

    I'm planning to run Tire Index again this year, and I'm going to stick with my 200TW Z2s even if OEM tires are allowed, mostly because I'm cheap and don't own a set of OEM tires...
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