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Last Post 05 Apr 2014 05:27 PM by  flatlander937
2014 Classes?
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Clark Marx
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27 Feb 2014 03:24 PM
Posted By mister2dood on 27 Feb 2014 07:50 AM
I thought I saw that Doug's sold last October or November...at least, there was a very similar one up for sale for about 1 day in Mason

That was Doug's. I was going to go take a look at it for someone on LT. It sold before I could even make it to Mason to take a look.

btschafer
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02 Mar 2014 03:17 PM

Make a decision on the lower TW limit for the Tire class and let the rest take care of itself.  I can, for example, make a personal choice whether to run my car in AS-T, SSR-T, or any other base class for which my car is legal.  So long as I meet the rules of the base class, and my tires are legal for T, everything else works out.

Am I missing anything here?

Bryan

P.S. Not sure what might happen with the CAM class.  The rules leave it completely up to us to create classes.  Not sure how this will work for PAX based scoring systems.

Schwartz
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02 Mar 2014 10:58 PM
Posted By trippinbillies40 on 15 Feb 2014 10:57 PM

I agree. If it were my decision, I would say tire index is based on street pax and requires 200tw or greater. 

 

But, if it were really up to me, I'd love to see everything cut down to index classes as follows:

S1: Street, Street R

S2: Street Prepared, Prepared

ST: All ST classes

M: Street Mod and Mod classes

P: Pro (open index)

N: Novice (open index)

L: Ladies (open index)

 

Maybe someday in the distant future

I have always been in favor of a setup like Dave is suggesting, but I wouldn't be in favor of lumping Street and Street-R together because of the small difference between Street and Street-R PAX.  The multiplier that has been commonly accepted is 0.975, which is what I think we used last year.  The multipliers for  range from 0.98 (for the high horsepower classes) to ~0.992 for HS/GS.  I don't care about it for overall PAX, but if we index the class, I am afraid that those of us running Street will get murdered by Street-R class.  I would be fine with putting Street with ST*, because that we are all on street tires.  

Overall, I think PAX is going to be rough for Street this year.



lightisfast
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03 Mar 2014 08:22 PM
Well I think there are enough competitors to break out to a street-R and street groups. Plus trying to break up into 2 or 3 groups might be impossible if one group is so massive...

The PAX is supposed to be set based on actual data. I often wonder too, but it does end up being more fair than you would expect. But, yeah on concrete, street doesn't stand a chance with those numbers. Still, I would have to agree that those numbers might be a bit conservative for the new classes. You have to admit that the .975 was pretty friendly on the HS PAX before, but this could be a bit too far.
trippinbillies40
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03 Mar 2014 11:06 PM
.975 was friendly on a speed maintenance car?  Disagree.
Catch-22
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04 Mar 2014 08:57 AM
At least for this year, we either need to use the "Less than 10 indexed classes" approach similar to what Dave mentioned above or ditch ALL index classes except Novice and run what is in the rulebook.

WE HAVE TOO MANY CLASSES!!!
Honestly, it has gotten ridiculous. This will hopefully be the worst year ever with the dual stock/street classes, but c'mon... At this point the trophy presentation is going to be 30 minutes of handing out 45 trophies to 35 one car classes. Ugh.

At a minimum we need to ditch the "T" index locally. Other than one or two cars it is redundant.

Catch-22
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04 Mar 2014 09:08 AM
My suggestion for 2014 local events is the following indexes:

T - All "street" classes

R - All stock classes on R compounds (Whatever they are calling that this year "Street R?")

ST - All ST classes

SR - All SP and SM classes

PM - All P and M classes

N - Novice

LS - All ladies classes on street tires

LR - All ladies classes on R tires


No street tire "modifiers" like the .975 thingy needed. This gives you 8 classes and everyone that is running against each other has similar tires and prep levels. No, it is not perfect as there will be course and weather dependencies that will favor some cars on certain days, but at least we have some actual competition going on vs. a pile of people competing against themselves.
That whole "all you have to do is not DNF on one run and you get 100 points and a trophy" thing has gotten totally out of hand. We might as well be having a car show out there, because most of the classes don't actually involve any sort of competition.

/rant and return to the status quo.
trippinbillies40
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04 Mar 2014 09:54 AM

I don't hate Scott's class breakdown compared to mine.  I think many people would still appreciate a pro class though.

 

That having been said, please realize that Scott and I are both suggesting that these become the ONLY classes in the region, not additional classes to the already 1001298282398372984732492 classes available. If we add all of these index classes on top of making normal classes available, I'm strongly opposed to it.

The Nebulizer
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04 Mar 2014 10:01 AM
Posted By Catch-22 on 04 Mar 2014 09:08 AM
My suggestion for 2014 local events is the following indexes:

T - All "street" classes

R - All stock classes on R compounds (Whatever they are calling that this year "Street R?")

ST - All ST classes

SR - All SP and SM classes

PM - All P and M classes

N - Novice

LS - All ladies classes on street tires

LR - All ladies classes on R tires


No street tire "modifiers" like the .975 thingy needed. This gives you 8 classes and everyone that is running against each other has similar tires and prep levels. No, it is not perfect as there will be course and weather dependencies that will favor some cars on certain days, but at least we have some actual competition going on vs. a pile of people competing against themselves.
That whole "all you have to do is not DNF on one run and you get 100 points and a trophy" thing has gotten totally out of hand. We might as well be having a car show out there, because most of the classes don't actually involve any sort of competition.

/rant and return to the status quo.

This is the method that looks best to me. It would be fun to have some other cars in classes for a change.
btschafer
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04 Mar 2014 07:19 PM
sjfehr
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04 Mar 2014 07:27 PM

Low horsepower, tires are hard as steel, but only 1200lbs or so? hmmmm... sounds like E Street!

Grayson
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20 Mar 2014 12:57 PM

This is basically a tweak of Gile's awesome recommendation (which was a tweak of Santel's), with Pro. I WOULD LOVE TO RACE IN A REGION WITH THESE CLASSES!!!

S - All Street classes

ST - All Street Touring classes

SR - All DOT race tire classes (SS-R, Street Prepared, Street Modified)

R - All racing slick classes (Prepared and Modified)

N - Novice

LS - All ladies Street and Street Touring classes

LR - All ladies race tire classes

X - Pro

Street R, which will only exist this year, would run with SR.

The reason that Gordon and I race together is because I was poking him to race his BMW in DSP so that I could have someone to race against...and that prodding somehow ended up with him driving my car. If I've learned anything in 15 years of autocross it's that having others to race against makes the sport much more fun - win or lose. The fun doubles when they're in the same car as you...and excuses are thrown out the window.

I'd love to hear if there's anyone that doesn't like the idea of the above classing proposal (or Giles', or Santel's). I don't have a vast circle of friends but I feel like they would all like to ditch the 79 classes per event thing and make trophies actually mean something. Heck, I think cleanup would go better and the autocross day would be improved if the trophy ceremony wasn't so brutal.


Jim Z
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20 Mar 2014 03:16 PM
Regardless of which configuration is chosen, I do like that you removed the letter 'O' from the name of each of the index classes.  It wasn't necessary to add an 'O' in order to differentiate the various index class designations from one another, This would avoid the need for people to try make a set of O's to match their current letter scheme, and/or a bunch of people trying to add that letter to their cars with painter's tape (could be hard to read by workers and T&S).
btschafer
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20 Mar 2014 05:08 PM
Posted By Jim Z on 20 Mar 2014 03:16 PM
Regardless of which configuration is chosen, I do like that you removed the letter 'O' from the name of each of the index classes.  It wasn't necessary to add an 'O' in order to differentiate the various index class designations from one another, This would avoid the need for people to try make a set of O's to match their current letter scheme, and/or a bunch of people trying to add that letter to their cars with painter's tape (could be hard to read by workers and T&S).

Excellent points, Jim.  I'll see if I can take the 'O' designation off of the open index classes.  Since we've already got a bunch registered for PE#1 I'll have to figure out how to do that mid-stream.  

BTW, it wouldn't bother me if the recent classing proposals happened for our region.  It seems that we pretty rarely have a regular SCCA class with many entrants.

Bryan


trippinbillies40
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20 Mar 2014 09:22 PM
SS is usually the only well-subscribed standard class, and that's only when we're at Wilmington. I'm REALLY digging this class structure this year. Mad props to Shari, Nathan, and the Solo committee for having the cajones to try this!
flatlander937
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22 Mar 2014 12:59 AM

Yeah I look forward to the large classes. Feels kinda douchy being the only one in your class and getting a participation trophy.

 

I collected a few just for kitchen decoration purposes though 

a67ssrs
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24 Mar 2014 09:29 PM

I agree with Jim Z. The "O" is unnecessary.

Catch-22
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25 Mar 2014 05:01 PM
As noted, it might be fun when you are new to the sport just to get out there and drive around and take a trophy home regardless of if you beat anyone. But if you REALLY want to have fun and you really really want to improve nothing beats seat time against competition.

Indexed based classing will never be perfect, and there will absolutely be weather situations where AWD has an advantage or course designs that favor HP over quick and nimble. That's fine, because the alternatives are to either keep largely competing against nobody or to eliminate half the classes outright (which would immediately make half of our cars obsolete and uncompetitive).
So yes, given the alternatives indexed classes are a FINE choice for regional events.

mdavis
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25 Mar 2014 11:30 PM
Posted By Catch-22 on 25 Mar 2014 05:01 PM
As noted, it might be fun when you are new to the sport just to get out there and drive around and take a trophy home regardless of if you beat anyone. But if you REALLY want to have fun and you really really want to improve nothing beats seat time against competition. 

I have to agree with Scott here. I ran an FSAE car for a couple of events against 1 other person max. While it is somewhat entertaining to wait around on a co-driver to stop spinning and potentially put together a hero lap and take the class win (and likely FTD overall), I had a lot more fun when I co-drove Dave Santel's mini at PE1 last year. Sure, I got my butt kicked in the Tire class (this also happened multiple other times throughout the year) but I learned more in a few events last year driving slow cars than I did driving a car with an unbelievably high performance potential. 

Schwartz
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28 Mar 2014 05:11 PM
Posted By Catch-22 on 04 Mar 2014 09:08 AM
My suggestion for 2014 local events is the following indexes:

T - All "street" classes

R - All stock classes on R compounds (Whatever they are calling that this year "Street R?")

ST - All ST classes

SR - All SP and SM classes

PM - All P and M classes

N - Novice

LS - All ladies classes on street tires

LR - All ladies classes on R tires


No street tire "modifiers" like the .975 thingy needed. This gives you 8 classes and everyone that is running against each other has similar tires and prep levels. No, it is not perfect as there will be course and weather dependencies that will favor some cars on certain days, but at least we have some actual competition going on vs. a pile of people competing against themselves.
That whole "all you have to do is not DNF on one run and you get 100 points and a trophy" thing has gotten totally out of hand. We might as well be having a car show out there, because most of the classes don't actually involve any sort of competition.

/rant and return to the status quo.

Scott -- I think this looks like a great approach. I'm all for it.


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