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Last Post 28 Sep 2014 08:33 PM by  trippinbillies40
Actual 2014 Cincy Class Structure
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Catch-22
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18 Jul 2014 10:28 AM
My suggestion for 2015 is similar to the current Pro Solo indexed classes:

SA - SS, AS, BS, FS.
SB - CS, DS, ES, GS, HS.
SS - Whatever we're calling Super Stock or whatever stock cars are still on DOT race tires
STA - STR, STU
STB - STS, STC, STF.
SPA - SSP, ASP, BSP, CSP, SSM, SM.
SPB - DSP, FSP, SMF
PM - All Prepared and Modified cars
TO - Any non Street or ST car on street tires
N - Novice (Anyone with 3 events or less)

a67ssrs
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19 Jul 2014 03:24 AM

Where is STX, Scott? Also, I thought they had the right idea last year, separating AWD from FWD from RWD in the street tire classes. Hopefully they will have enough data after this year to put more cars in the classes they will be competitive in, and getting the PAX right. 

mdavis
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20 Jul 2014 04:38 PM
Posted By Catch-22 on 18 Jul 2014 10:28 AM
My suggestion for 2015 is similar to the current Pro Solo indexed classes:

SA - SS, AS, BS, FS.
SB - CS, DS, ES, GS, HS.
SS - Whatever we're calling Super Stock or whatever stock cars are still on DOT race tires
STA - STR, STU
STB - STS, STC, STF.
SPA - SSP, ASP, BSP, CSP, SSM, SM.
SPB - DSP, FSP, SMF
PM - All Prepared and Modified cars
TO - Any non Street or ST car on street tires
N - Novice (Anyone with 3 events or less)

NVM, mis-read the non-street or ST cars. I like this list.

Catch-22
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21 Jul 2014 10:20 AM
Missed STX. I'd plug it into where STC is about to vacate.

Separating FWD/AWD/RWD is a misconception. It's more about power vs. grip in terms of balancing within an index class.
For example, if you stick ES RWD MR2s and Miatas in with RWD Corvettes and Mustangs the result is going to be extremely course dependent. Lots of 90s and straights and the V8s have a huge advantage. Lots of fast slaloms and offsets and the MRiatas have the big advantage.

When you throw Miatas, Celicas, Minis, low powered Subarus, and 3 series in there together it makes a lot more sense and is much less course dependant. Sure, the weather plays a role but it always will. Keep in mind that some classes have a combination of RWD, AWD, and FWD all in the same class. I have to deal with 4 banger BMWs and AE86s and non-turbo Subarus in FSP, but we are all low powered and lightweight so it ends up pretty damned close in the end.

Index isn't perfect and never will be because it CAN'T be. There are just too many factors involved. Course design, weather, surface, wind direction (seriously, you can feel a headwind slowing you down in the CRX). But given the alternative of 75 classes across 100 entrants in an effort to make it as fair as possible I will take running on index every single time. I can't understand why anyone wouldn't.
Again... Competition club. We shouldn't be in the business of trading beer glasses for entry fees.
obielando
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23 Sep 2014 01:11 PM
When and how do the class structures for the following year typically get decided on? Also, could someone explain the tire index to me a little more? I was sort of confused based off the various cars I saw on Sunday with a T or a T in front of something.
Catch-22
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24 Sep 2014 09:45 AM
The markings on the doors are getting a little confusing, frankly because this is (hopefully) a transition year and we just have too many classes. I've been at this for more than 20 years and while working start on Sunday the various iterations of door markings were confusing me. I chose to ignore it, hoping they had it figured out in the trailer (they did).

In terms of class structure next year (and hopefully settling down into some consistency for a few years after) that is pretty much the solo chair's call. My opinion is that the best competition, highest interest, and most fun is pretty clearly in the indexed classes right now so I hope we eliminate all of these little 1 and 2 car classes and go strictly on index locally next season. The Street Index was awesome on Sunday.
Plus we have the added bonus of not needing to go through 50 classes for trophies. Which is kind of icky.
JWhitling
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24 Sep 2014 09:54 AM
This issue definitely needs addressed. I don't think however that everything should be an index class. We should have all national SCCA classes to choose from and if you want to throw index classes on top of that, fine I guess.

The alphabet soup of class structures is laughable and not worth the considerable trouble to understand. It definitely makes everything about timing and scoring harder.

IMO the biggest issue though is car numbers with 1" painter's tape and such. Car identifications at our local events are beyond pathetic. Get it together people and make some kind of effort .. jesh!
Catch-22
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24 Sep 2014 11:24 AM

"Posted By John Whitling on 24 Sep 2014 09:54 AM
This issue definitely needs addressed. I don't think however that everything should be an index class. We should have all national SCCA classes to choose from and if you want to throw index classes on top of that, fine I guess. "

 

 

Lord I hope not.  Thats the problem now.  This past Sunday we had something like 50 available classes for 55 entries.  That's ridiculous.

  



obielando
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24 Sep 2014 12:13 PM

by trade, I'm a business analyst, so in my mind, there isn't a problem that can't be solved by an excel sheet and some fancy vb.

 i went ahead and pulled down the data from the championship points so far, and looked up all the competitors in the index classes to see what base class they took, and counted the entries in each class, and came up with this table, which i feel would be the best split up

 conditions:

- i omitted PE#1, which was on the pad and drew a lot of non-locals, and PE#3 since it was combined, with the OVR group,
from one of the columns below to get a better idea of how the 'typical' day would look.

- i re-classed the street-R cars into their appropriate street category and moved the street-R cars running in the tire index into their appropriate street categories (moving the others running in tire into their appropriate base categories too - but we could keep the tire index - i think with the removal of the street-r categories, the oddities i mentioned in the previous post, above, will fade away).

- there are a few 'anomalies' in the data when folks ran cars in different base classes, within the same indexed class (ran CS in street open in PE#1 and ES in street open in the rest of the PE's, as an example), during the year, since i just made a best guess if i didn't know.

feel free to critique, criticize, expand or discard entirely - i'm still new, and am probably overlooking a lot of history and tradition and things more experienced members would know, but this seems to at least be more 'balanced' as far as number of local entries, and the whole car 'type' thing, while trying to maintain a modicum of the power/grip feel for each class as described above.

 

Proposed Index Classes # of Entries Total # of Entries (Excluding PE# 1&3) Avg. # Entries/event
M - 'Modified Open' 33 23 4
K - 'Kart Open' 7 3 1
N - 'Novice' 98 71 12
P - 'Prepared Open' 21 15 3
SA - 'Street A Open' (SS/AS/BS/FS) 67 45 8
SB - 'Street B Open' (CS/DS/ES) 106 72 12
SC - 'Street C Open' (GS/HS) 54 46 8
SMO - 'Street Modified Open' 44 32 5
SP - 'Street Prepared Open' 34 24 4
STA - 'Street Touring Open A' (STR/STX/STU) 88 55 9
STB - 'Street Touring Open B' (STS/STC/STF) 38 28 5
X - 'Pro' 22 6 1
Total 612 420 72

<style id="telerik-reTable-1" type="text/css"> .telerik-reTable-1 { border-width: 0px; border-style: none; border-collapse: collapse; font-family: Tahoma; } .telerik-reTable-1 tr.telerik-reTableHeaderRow-1 { margin: 10px; padding: 10px; color: #3F4D6B; background: #D6E8FF; text-align: left; font-size: 10pt; font-style: normal; font-family: Tahoma; text-transform: capitalize; font-weight: bold; border-spacing: 10px; line-height: 14pt; vertical-align: top; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableHeaderFirstCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; color: #3a4663; line-height: 14pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableHeaderLastCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; color: #3a4663; line-height: 14pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableHeaderOddCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; color: #3a4663; line-height: 14pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableHeaderEvenCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; color: #3a4663; line-height: 14pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 tr.telerik-reTableOddRow-1 { color: #666666; background-color: #F2F3F4; font-size: 10pt; vertical-align: top; } .telerik-reTable-1 tr.telerik-reTableEvenRow-1 { color: #666666; background-color: #E7EBF7; font-size: 10pt; vertical-align: top; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableFirstCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableLastCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableOddCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableEvenCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 tr.telerik-reTableFooterRow-1 { background-color: #D6E8FF; color: #4A5A80; font-weight: 500; font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma; line-height: 11pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableFooterFirstCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; border-top: solid gray 1.0pt; text-align: left; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableFooterLastCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; border-top: solid gray 1.0pt; text-align: left; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableFooterOddCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; text-align: left; border-top: solid gray 1.0pt; } .telerik-reTable-1 td.telerik-reTableFooterEvenCol-1 { padding: 0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; text-align: left; border-top: solid gray 1.0pt; } </style>

 
Catch-22
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24 Sep 2014 12:32 PM
Its that very last number in the bottom right hand corner that catches my eye.

Our average number of entrants per event is 72.
The number of classes currently on the year end points list is ... 51.

So 51 classes to cover an average of 72 entries. Ugh.
Lets kill that with fire please.

In terms of entry levels per class that chart matches what you'll generally see across the country. While some regions do have strangely large numbers of Prepared and Mod entries (C Mod in Indy, for example, is often their largest class) you will generally see fewer entries the higher you go in prep level.
So in terms of indexing it makes sense to have more indexes in the Stock and Street Touring classes and fewer of them as you go up to Modified.
mdavis
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25 Sep 2014 10:40 PM
12 classes? That sounds awesome!!! Having worked timing multiple times this year, the variety of labeling of cars is somewhat difficult to understand the first or potentially even 2nd time through, but after that, it's pretty easy. The fact that the software shows each class on the left hand side of the screen makes looking up car numbers/classes very easy. The one thing that I'm somewhat concerned about is that with the way the current software is set up, the cars are put in based on index class, then base class (example: SMOSSM, for Street Mod Open, Super Street Mod, or STSTX for Street Touring Open STX Base). With the suggested new setup, you would still need some way to identify the base class, otherwise everyone would be running on the same PAX, which wouldn't seem to be ideal. The easy way it would seem to do this is during registration, and hopefully keep the base classes out of the view of the timing trailer guys as much as possible. I don't know if this is possible or not, but if Bryan needs some help in the off-season potentially trying to set it up, I'd be willing to put in some time helping with that.

On a side note, Obie, that analysis is awesome. I knew there was a reason we seemed to be getting along. Well done, and thanks for painting the picture that will hopefully lead to a significantly simpler class structure.
obielando
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26 Sep 2014 07:54 AM
If anyone wants the spreadsheet - it's not exactly pretty, but it's attached.  It should let you play with things a little bit - if you wanted to.
Attachments
trippinbillies40
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28 Sep 2014 08:33 PM

Going from an average of 51 classes to 12 means in theory we could greatly increase the cost of trophies given away, meaning you have something nicer than a shotglass to look forward to for winning. 

 

And honestly, if you're in it to compete by yourself so you get a glass/mug/whatever, please let me know and I'll be happy to donate a few dozen to you  if you're cool with us going to 12 classes. And this is coming from a guy who will have a seriously underprepped STX car next year and will get my ass kicked in an ST index class.

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