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Last Post 25 Jul 2014 10:05 AM by  CadVetteStang
Is there a place for build threads? Is this the best forum for that?
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CadVetteStang
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21 Jul 2014 01:15 PM

    I am building a GM FWD V8 car and I am almost sure it will be in a Street Prepared classification.

     I would like advice from suspension builders, ect.

    Is there a link to a page that clarifies the modification differences between SP and modified?

     

    thanks,

      Cody

     

    ratt_finkel
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    22 Jul 2014 10:22 AM
    All the rules are listed on scca.com. You can download a rulebook there. Unfortunately, we do not have a flow chart or anything similar outlining the differences between classes. It's all in text. Also, the classes do not always share an overlap in rules. For instance, some thing may be illegal in Prepared but legal in SP. Even though P allows for more modifications.

    I'm only aware of the grand prix, impala and cadilacs coming with FWD V8's. So unless you are using on of those platforms, SP is out of the question. Street Mod may be a better option. And then there is the competiveness factor. I can't imagine any of those being top performers. Fun? Sure!
    CadVetteStang
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    22 Jul 2014 11:37 AM

    Jeremy, thanks for the reply.

    My basic understanding of SP (as was explained by another driver ) is that the original suspension attachment locations must be maintained, but that is the principal regulation about suspension mods. The engine must be basically stock and allows for a cold air intake, custom exhaust and wider wheels. I am looking for a class governed by guidelines like that that also allow for bigger brakes. As simplistic as that explanation is, it is the direction I am headed with this build.

    I will download the rule book and read it. Again, thanks for the help.

    Yeah, unfortunately I have already learned to NOT lead off with much information about the car due to a huge misconception about its true handling, size, weight and weight distribution. It has an SLA rear end similar in design to that of an SVT Cobra (minus differential and drive axles). And it has a much better weigh distribution than the V-6 W-body platforms.

    Even before my rear suspension upgrades it was very fun to corner with while playing with Mustangs. But now that the rear has been upgraded with 1000 lb./inch springs, an oversized sway bar, and shocks with 10 way self-adjusting valves, I am confident about its competitive potential.

    Okay, here's the kicker..... It is a 2002 Eldorado.... I get teased about that, as you can well imagine. But not from the drivers of the other cars I have cornered with. This is a car that has experienced hanging with Mustangs and I will be having a lot of fun with it -no matter how I place in SCCA competition.

    Cody G. Carson

    CadVetteStang
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    22 Jul 2014 01:43 PM
    As the pictures show, this is not a big car.

    [URL=http://s798.photobucket.com/user/kaywoodcove/media/2002%20Eldorado%20ESC/02%20Eldorado%20ESC%20Build%20Thread/0707140856-1.jpg.html][/URL]

    It’s rear end is only 28 lbs. heavier than an SN95 Mustang Cobra's and its front end is only 110 pounds heavier than the V6 Grand Prix front.

    [URL=http://s798.photobucket.com/user/kaywoodcove/media/2002%20Eldorado%20ESC/02%20Eldorado%20ESC%20Build%20Thread/1217131620.jpg.html][/URL]

    Its weight distribution is 63/37 which I have been told is close to the CRX, so not too nose heavy to get it to corner.

    [URL=http://s798.photobucket.com/user/kaywoodcove/media/2002%20Eldorado%20ESC/02%20Eldorado%20ESC%20Build%20Thread/1126131623-1.jpg.html][/URL]


    It shocks some people to learn how much bigger the Chargers are than this Cadillac.
    [URL=http://s798.photobucket.com/user/kaywoodcove/media/2002%20Eldorado%20ESC/02%20Eldorado%20ESC%20Build%20Thread/1126131620.jpg.html][/URL]
    CadVetteStang
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    22 Jul 2014 03:25 PM
    I realize that I can't sell the idea of this as being a worthwhile venture; only official time slips from sanctioned events can do that. And I like the idea that I am the only person I know of racing this platform. (the 98 up Sevilles and STS cars have been autocrossed, but they are based on a different platform with a trailing arm rear suspension and have a much longer wheelbase.
    What I mainly need advice on is the front suspension. I'm about done with the rear. Here's a pic.
    [URL=http://s798.photobucket.com/user/kaywoodcove/media/2002%20Eldorado%20ESC/02%20Eldorado%20ESC%20Build%20Thread/0629141601.jpg.html][/URL]
    drdisque
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    22 Jul 2014 06:28 PM
    two things you'll want to consider - You'll want to get as much negative camber up front as you can. With that much weight on the front end, it will be leaning on the outside edges really hard if you don't dial in a fair amount of negative camber. This is less of an issue with R-comps if you're building the car for SP, but it's still an issue.

    Secondly, you could build the car for SMF instead of ESP. ESP and SMF have virtually the same PAX. This would allow you to do more engine modifications, more freedom in substituting suspension components, more leeway in reducing weight, and more ability to open up the bodywork for wider wheels. It also allows subframe connectors which would really help this car I'm guessing.
    CadVetteStang
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    22 Jul 2014 11:34 PM
    Thanks for the good info. I don't know if I will have the budget to get some R-comps unless I find them on closeout. I have some 17 X 8.5" wheels I can use for them, however.
    I know that I can run 275/40 18s on 10" wide wheels in the back. I have to double check, but I think all I have to do is roll the front fenders to have them on all four corners.... 245 or 255s on 9" wide rims is an easy fit as is.

    This is a full frame car, but it has a K-frame engine cradle too.
    I will try eliminating the spacers between them to raise the K-frame (to raise the inner A-Arm attachment point ) to raise the roll center. If I can do that, I may lower the car about half as much. The geometry should then stay close.
    I will be using camber bolts to get 1.75 degrees. But I don't know if slotting or drilling new upper strut mount holes is allowed. If so, then I can get better positive caster too.
    I won't have the money this year to do Koni inserts, but I may have found a slightly stiffer strut for a swap.
    I have a bigger sway bar to install on the front too.
    It has a factory camber setting right now and I am shaving the outside edges of the front tires off with all of the practice driving I am doing.
    The stiffer rear is preventing excessive body roll.
    Biggest problem is that the Stabilitrak kicks in WAY too soon on sharp corners and will apply brakes while I am trail throttling. I can get by with a 30MPH 90 degree turn at an intersection, but circling an off ramp at a good speed puts the car in panic mode and it will even cut power for a second while the computer selectively applies brakes to individual wheels to try fixing what it thinks I'm doing wrong.
    I need to find a way to install an off switch so I can get the car to its real limits.
    CadVetteStang
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    23 Jul 2014 10:12 AM
    Another thing I need to work out is how to stay in firmly planted in the seat. I prefer two foot driving, but there is just enough room between my hip and the door that a quick right turn will slam my left hip against the door and I slide and turn just far enough that sometimes my braking foot slips off of the pedal. To avoid this for now, I use one foot driving and use my left foot firmly pressed against the left corner of the floor board to locate me in the seat. I also slide a little in left turns, but the seat belt buckle resting against the center console keeps me from going too far…. I need some kind of stiff foam padding to wedge me in place, but I’m sure it would have to be attached somehow to be legal. I’m not going to put holes or glue into the leather interior, so I either need to strap them to the seat, or put Velcro straps on them and wear them on my upper legs kind of like thigh pads in football pants. Anyone ever deal with an issue like this? I even thought about hooks for my belt and a straps that are fed through the bucket seat to locate my seating position that way.
    ratt_finkel
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    23 Jul 2014 12:00 PM
    I don't want to be one to discourage a new autocrosser. But I really think you would be better off using a different platform. I think a prepped Eldorado could be a fun car. But even with an expert driver behind the wheel, you are talking 10k easily just to get it to SP prep. Triple that for SM or SMF. And this would require a steady diet of R-Comps. Even then, I think it would be hard to trophy.

    You can pick up cheap Miata's and Civics that will run circles around the cady. For 2-3k you can find nice running examples. And I think most would agree your long term benefits would be greater in one of those platforms vs an Eldorado.
    ratt_finkel
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    23 Jul 2014 12:05 PM
    http://littlerock.craigslist.org/ct...50418.html

    Here is one close to you. The AR guys are all really cool. Maybe you can ask them about co-driving opportunities as well. Or maybe someone knows a car for sale.
    hklvette
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    23 Jul 2014 12:49 PM
    If you're dead-set on autocrossing the eldo in a prepared class, you need to find out how to cram as much tire under the front axle as possible. A two-ton FWD car needs a lot of tire to manage the heat that it will generate in them. I had a 7th gen GP that I autocrossed for a while until I picked up my C5 so I'm familiar with what they can and can't do. Its too bad a torque biasing (torsen, quaife, etc) diff isn't available for the 4T80E, as that's what GM FWD cars need the most. I think Quaife makes one for the 4T65E, but its spendy.
    CadVetteStang
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    23 Jul 2014 01:42 PM
    Jeremy, my mind is made up- don’t confuse me with the facts… lol.
    I have been getting to know the Arkansas guys and have started volunteering when the schedule allows.
    My Eldorado has been taken down a few back-roads with some of the experienced SCCA drivers and I have been pleased at how my car has done while cornering with a second generation WRX and a 3 Series BMW (they were shocked). I can assure you that the poor reputation in autocrossing these cars has is inherited from the longer wheelbase 98 up Seville STS cars with their trailing arm rear suspensions.

    Hklvette, the STS cars I mentioned above would be a good comparison with the GP you raced. All three cars have a very similar front suspension, but the back half of the Eldo is a completely different animal. Yes, I am dead set on racing it. But, I must do a low budget build relying on salvage swaps when possible.

    This is a 0 – 60 in 6.8 second car that – as mentioned above- is making enough lateral G force that I am trying to figure out how to stay in the seat. I am cool with being the only fool who wants to race one.
    CadVetteStang
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    23 Jul 2014 02:41 PM
    here is some data to compare:
    2003 Mustang SVT Cobra weight is 3,075 lbs.
    Front to rear weight distribution ratio is ratio is 55/45
    Rear weight: 1383.75
    Each rear corner: 691.9 lbs.

    Compared to:

    Eldorado weight: 3,814
    Weight Ratio F/R: 63/37
    1,412 lbs. rear
    706 lbs. each rear corner

    2002 Eldorado ESC: Car weight: 3,814........... 2005-2014 Mustang GT 3,603 lbs.

    Eldorado Weight Ratio F/R: 63/37............ 2005-2014 Mustang GT 55/45

    Eldorado weight: 2,402 lbs. front (,1201lbs. each front corner)........ 2005-2014 Mustang GT 1981.7 front/ 991 each corner… Eldo is 210 heavier each front wheel

    Eldorado Wheel base 108” (C6 Corvette wheelbase 105.7”, 2005-2014 Mustang 107.1", 1997-2008 Grand Prix wheelbase 110.5&rdquo

    Eldorado Track width front and rear is a matched 60.9” ..... (2005-2014 Mustang 62.3" front / 62.9" rear)

    Another car to compare:
    1999 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP sedan (front suspension is almost identical to 92-96 Eldorados and very close to 97-02 Eldorados:
    Grand Prix Weight: 3559 lbs.  Ratio (F/R): 65/35 = 2313 total front end weight (1,156.7 each front corner), 1,245 lbs. total rear weight (622.8 lbs. each rear corner)

    again, 02 Eldorado is 2403 lbs. front weight as compared to 2313 for the W-Body cars with a V6.
    hklvette
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    23 Jul 2014 06:57 PM

    The basics still apply then: Make the rear of the car as stiff as you possibly can to aid rotation, and put on as much front tire as you can to deal with the weight. I doubt camber plates are readily available, and they would be the desirable route as opposed to camber bolts between the strut and knuckle.

    CadVetteStang
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    23 Jul 2014 08:31 PM
    Thank you. Due to the similarities of suspension design and rear end weigh between my Eldorado and the SVT Cobra, I used it as a model for my rear suspension build.
    My rear wheel rate is .2413 (SVT Cobra is a. 33)
    My stock rear springs were rated at about 280 lbs / inch which gave me a stock wheel rate of 67.5 lbs / inch, but were also supported by 7 psi of pneumatic pressure in the shocks.
    (the SVT Cobra stock springs of 600 lbs / inch gave them a rear wheel rate of 198 lbs / inch. The Cobras with 800 lbs / inch racing springs have a rear wheel rate of 264 lbs / inch )
    Currently, my springs are 1000 lbs / inch giving me a wheel rate of 241 lbs / inch. However, The back of the car sits one inch above being level. I think I want to drop the rear 1.5" to place it a half inch lower than the front. If I do that, the cut will create 1100 lbs / inch springs which would give the car a rear wheel rate of 265 lbs / inch.

    I had originally intended to adapt the Cobra's Bilstien shocks but went with Pro Comp ES9000 due to the self adjusting 10 way valves and soft ride.. They work beautifully.
    My car came with a 14MM rear bar and Touring Coupes had 16MM bars. I found an Early Seville with an 18MM bar and installed it with polyurethane bushings.
    Other than the final spring cut and installation of the bigger brakes, I am basically done with the back of the car. The new rear end is very stable and streetable. And it only cost me $250 total to build.

    CadVetteStang
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    24 Jul 2014 09:14 AM

    For the front wheels, would 255s on 8.5" wide rims do better than 275s on 9" rims?

     As stated before, I already have some 8.5" wide wheels. But I need to have the center holes enlarged for fitment. However, I can get a set of used 9" wide wheels at a reasonable price.

    I don't know if a 255 on a 9" is going to do that much better than on the 8.5" so I wasn't going to spend the extra money unless a squeezed 275 will do better than a 255 on a matched width wheel.

    ratt_finkel
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    24 Jul 2014 10:55 AM
    Posted By CadVetteStang on 23 Jul 2014 08:31 PM
    Thank you. Due to the similarities of suspension design and rear end weigh between my Eldorado and the SVT Cobra, I used it as a model for my rear suspension build.



    Cody, you seem like a nice enough guy. And I can tell you are enthusiastic about the build. What level of competitiveness are you hoping to achieve? If the car is SP legal. Do you want to win your SP class locally? Divisionally? Nationally? Are you happy placing well in PAX? What are you goals with the build other than having fun of course
    CadVetteStang
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    24 Jul 2014 01:33 PM
    Posted By ratt_finkel on 24 Jul 2014 10:55 AM
    Posted By CadVetteStang on 23 Jul 2014 08:31 PM
    Thank you. Due to the similarities of suspension design and rear end weigh between my Eldorado and the SVT Cobra, I used it as a model for my rear suspension build.



    Cody, you seem like a nice enough guy. And I can tell you are enthusiastic about the build. What level of competitiveness are you hoping to achieve? If the car is SP legal. Do you want to win your SP class locally? Divisionally? Nationally? Are you happy placing well in PAX? What are you goals with the build other than having fun of course

    Jeremy, at this time (and for a few more years to come) I will not have the budget to compete nationally or divisionally in any car. I plan to compete locally 3 to 4 times next year and in at least one Division level event. After next year, I hope to compete locally on a regular basis. I am fine with doing well in PAX.

    I simply want to build this Eldorado into the best handling car it can become on my bottom-dollar budget without making a mistake that would place it in an impossible class, such as “if you hadn’t re-drilled your upper strut mounting holes, you would have been in a much slower class”.

     

    I also want to have a few experiences like I did back in 1986/87 when racing a bone-stock 1970 Eldorado. I have not raced in an SCCA event since then, where I had faster times than the Mustangs, Trans Ams, and almost picked off the slowest Vette. There are no existing records or videos to verify the claim of my old experiences, but I have tried to find them (and even posted the story on this forum looking for help locating the records). Cars are much faster now, so I wanted to build a faster Eldorado, turn some quicker times, beat some faster cars and live on a new set of memories and stories (with videos).  I have lived in the past for 27 years. It is time to race again…. In another Eldorado… and I don’t intend to be disappointed.

    drdisque
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    24 Jul 2014 02:09 PM
    Then don't worry - as the class that allows pretty much anything you could reasonably do to your car - SMF isn't any more impossible than ESP. In fact you're far more likely to find knuckleheads who don't know what they're doing at the local level that you can beat in SMF than ESP.
    ratt_finkel
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    24 Jul 2014 07:42 PM
    Agreed, I think SMF is the place for you. Good luck and have fun!

    Oh, to answer your questions earlier. You want to get as much rubber on as much wheel on the front of the car. The more the better. The rear won't be as important since it's just holding up the back.

    Work on getting a real diff. And then building the transmission to allow manual shifting.

    Then the front suspension. You'll want lots of negative camber. And stiff springs. Go ahead and throw out any other comparisons. Just because the cobra is similar, doesn't mean you should be looking at it as a template. You need to treat your car like a 4k lb, nose heavy FWD car.
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