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Last Post 12 Aug 2014 08:02 PM by  conevadr
Wilmington Champ Tour PAX/RTP Index Results
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rtp.rick
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04 Aug 2014 04:11 PM

    I have attached PDFs of the PAX/RTP Index Results from the Wilmington Champ Tour.  The "Class Pos." column indicates Final Class Position.  Lots and lots of cars....

    Apparently, there was rain on Saturday in the morning.

    H's & K's,
    Rick Ruth

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    Z3papa
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    04 Aug 2014 09:11 PM
    It's a real eye opener to see how far down the list you have to get before you see the first street tire car of any class.
    gareno
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    06 Aug 2014 08:45 AM

    Yeah, I thought the site offered very low grip on street tires. I expected much more. Kinda reminded me of Heartland Park Topeka grip, when the site was new. Now HPT has improved over the years, which is now much higher grip than Wilmington concrete.

    SIMMONS-RACING
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    06 Aug 2014 09:49 PM
    Posted By Z3papa on 04 Aug 2014 09:11 PM
    It's a real eye opener to see how far down the list you have to get before you see the first street tire car of any class.

    Tell me about it, .....I was 2nd fastest on street tires, but 47th in Pax

     

    I think it is mainly because of the concrete.

     

    Simmons

    Z3papa
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    06 Aug 2014 11:07 PM
    I kinda wondered whether the undulations in the concrete caused street tires issues. I still like the site but it seems pretty clear the PAX values are skewed at least at this site.
    Clemens
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    07 Aug 2014 07:15 AM
    Posted By Z3papa on 06 Aug 2014 11:07 PM
    I kinda wondered whether the undulations in the concrete caused street tires issues. I still like the site but it seems pretty clear the PAX values are skewed at least at this site.

    PAX results are ALWAYS skewed.  You can never get them "right".  Too bad that the Milwaukee Match Tour was cancelled.  Those PAX results would have been skewed in the opposite direction.

    It seems like Corvettes did well on this course/site combination.

     

    Clemens

    edfishjr
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    08 Aug 2014 12:06 PM

    I ran Rivals on my BS Corvette and thought the grip was good but nothing special... maybe only slightly better than good asphalt, really. Though I won the class, my PAX was very low. Part of that was the rain in group 2, part of it a competition situation where I had only to cover the others day 2, and part is that BS in the East is admittedly a soft class.

     

    When you see Mike Johnson win AS and pax #130 on Sunday you have to wonder.

    Clemens
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    08 Aug 2014 05:12 PM

    Ed,

    It might be correct that for this particular surface/course/weather combination, the current PAX system is not "fair".  When I look at the Sunday PAX results, I see Mike Johnson (AS) in 130th, Brian Priebe (GS) in 128th, Greg Reno (HS) in 121st and Andrew Pallotta (FS) in 102nd place.  They are all multiple National Champions and very capable drivers.  Maybe they really should rank higher, which means you would have to adjust the PAX factor for their classes.

    Let's look at Mike again.  AS has a PAX factor of 0.833.  Where does he really "belong" if you want to move him up?  If you wanted to see him in the PAX results in 50th place, AS would need a PAX factor of 0.809, for 25th, AS would need a 0.786 factor and for first, AS would need a 0.771 PAX factor.  Maybe he wasn't the fastest car/driver combo out there, but if you assume that he "belonged" in 50th place, AS would need the 0.809 factor.

    Now, fast-forward to another arbitrary event somewhere in this country at a different site with a different surface, a different course, under different weather conditions with a different set of drivers, but good participation in AS.  You wouldn't have to look too hard to find an event where AS would totally blow the other classes out of the water in the PAX standings.  Now what?

    Isn't playing with numbers fun?

     

    Clemens

    Clemens
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    08 Aug 2014 05:15 PM

    Oops, calculation error!  In the above message, the required PAX factor for a 25th place position should be 0.800, not 0.786. Excel played a trick on me.

     

    Clemens

    sjfehr
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    Posts:634


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    08 Aug 2014 09:44 PM
    Have you looked at the results using the DAX index? Would be interesting to see how it compares to PAX for this season's national events.
    Forcednduckshn
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    11 Aug 2014 02:16 PM
    I was the fastest ST car on PAX. I won my class. A guy named Matthew Braun finished 2nd. I finished 43rd on PAX, 4.3 seconds from top PAX.

    According to PAX, I left 2.15 seconds per minute on course.

    According to PAX, Position 1 through 9 in SuperStock out drove me

    According to PAX, my codriver from last year, whom I outpaced at every single event for the past 2 years in B-Stock, to whom I outpaced in the same car typicaly around 2 seconds per minute, outpaxed me by 1.3 seconds. He was in an ASP car.

    For all of your PAX diehards, you can either choose to accept the fact that PAX does not work, or you can choose think it does work, and that all ST drivers are massively incompetent compared to Rcomp drivers. If the latter is the case, then I encourage you to put me, Braun, Lugod, Hurst, Peters, Motonishi in some of the faster SP/M cars and see how somehow our index times magically go 2-4 second faster.

    I will never, ever, race someone on index, and would never presume that I outdrove, or was outdriven by someone because of my PAX ranking. I personally believe the PAX has grown in to something in our sport that is pretty negative only breeds misunderstanding by those on the inside and outside that think PAX can be used as accurate means to assess talent.

    No disrespect to Rick Ruth, I thank you for your service to our community and sport. But I do believe our sport would be much better off without it, generally speaking.

    Thanks,
    MrAWD
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    11 Aug 2014 04:17 PM
    WOW! You had to write all of that just to cover up your lousy driving? 4.3 sec man...c'mon!!

    I couldn't agree more with above aside that thing that we don't need it. I think we do and PAX worked pretty well in the past between the cars on race tires. Introduction of Street classes started to create bigger imbalance between those. This year is even worse because it was decided that Street classes are a big treat for the overall SCCA community well being that PAX numbers assigned to those new classes are worse than anyone expected. Kind of make no sense to make a change to accommodate larger number of new guys, but screw them up with the PAX as much as there is.

    One thing did affect all of this though. Some cars were moved down to the slower classes for whatever reason (Corvettes in particular) and they are the only cars that showed here and there that they could get to the top of the PAX (when combined with great driver and well prepared cars, of course). I hope that is not going to be used to justify current PAX numbers, but rather show how improper that classing decision really is/was. Nationals is just around the corner, so thing will be much more clear after that!
    marka
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    11 Aug 2014 07:35 PM

    Howdy,

    Posted By Clemens on 08 Aug 2014 05:12 PM

    Isn't playing with numbers fun?

     

    Not really, no.  :-)

     

    Mark

    sjfehr
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    11 Aug 2014 09:08 PM

    The concept of an index is not a bad thing, there are just too many dependencies for a single index to ever be accurate for all events. PAX seems to work well enough for regions that use sites it's designed for. Just sucks for regions that don't enough people to run straight-up classes, and have no choice but to rely on an index that may be 2 or more seconds for their events.  I don't expect to ever see an index that's accurate to the hundredth of a second, but would be nice to at least get it within half a second or so.  Any chance we'll get separate asphalt and concrete PAXes next year?

    MrAWD
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    11 Aug 2014 09:13 PM
    C'mon. ..this year's PAX is so bad for Street classes that no surface could make it right. ..well except snow and cold, perhaps. ..
    sjfehr
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    11 Aug 2014 09:31 PM

    Nick wasn't even talking about Street, but ST. There's a huge amount of surface dependency between asphalt and concrete that you can see in the more established indexes. There also seems to be a bigger gulf between street tire and r-comps at national events since everyone runs 'em to the cords locally, then break out the stickers and low-run A6s for the big events.  

     

    The net result is that if the index is "pretty good" for a lot of regional stuff, it's going to be awful for national stuff, and vice versa.

    MrAWD
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    11 Aug 2014 11:23 PM
    Posted By sjfehr on 11 Aug 2014 09:31 PM

    Nick wasn't even talking about Street, but ST. There's a huge amount of surface dependency between asphalt and concrete that you can see in the more established indexes. There also seems to be a bigger gulf between street tire and r-comps at national events since everyone runs 'em to the cords locally, then break out the stickers and low-run A6s for the big events.  

     

    The net result is that if the index is "pretty good" for a lot of regional stuff, it's going to be awful for national stuff, and vice versa.

    You are right about Nick! I have added part for the Street classes and things are much worse there compared to the ST ones, which are still not right.

    But, if some regions have it "pretty good" for the "ST" vs. "race tire camp", even for them situation in Street classes has to suck! I still like to believe (reason why I would still defend PAX at the end) that this situation can and will be fixed after the Nationals, so one way or another, we will have much better picture pretty soon!


    Z3papa
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    11 Aug 2014 11:30 PM
    What's clear is there is a huge need for an index for concrete vs. asphalt. Maybe there are more events on asphalt and the index is weighted in that direction, but its fairly obvious it's not accurate on concrete.
    edfishjr
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    12 Aug 2014 12:46 PM

    Posted By <a href='http://www.sccaforums.com/user-profile/userid/13766' class='af-profile-link'>Clemens</a> on 08 Aug 2014 05:12 PM
    <p>Ed,</p>
    <p>It might be correct that for this particular surface/course/weather combination, the current PAX system is not "fair".  When I look at the Sunday PAX results, I see Mike Johnson (AS) in 130th, Brian Priebe (GS) in 128th, Greg Reno (HS) in 121st and Andrew Pallotta (FS) in 102nd place.  They are all multiple National Champions and very capable drivers.  Maybe they really should rank higher, which means you would have to adjust the PAX factor for their classes.</p>
    <p>Let's look at Mike again.  AS has a PAX factor of 0.833.  Where does he really "belong" if you want to move him up?  If you wanted to see him in the PAX results in 50th place, AS would need a PAX factor of 0.809, for 25th, AS would need a 0.786 factor and for first, AS would need a 0.771 PAX factor.  Maybe he wasn't the fastest car/driver combo out there, but if you assume that he "belonged" in 50th place, AS would need the 0.809 factor.</p>
    <p>Now, fast-forward to another arbitrary event somewhere in this country at a different site with a different surface, a different course, under different weather conditions with a different set of drivers, but good participation in AS.  You wouldn't have to look too hard to find an event where AS would totally blow the other classes out of the water in the PAX standings.  Now what?</p>
    <p>Isn't playing with numbers fun?</p>
    <p> </p>
    <p>Clemens</p>


    I stopped worrying about indexes a while back. I shouldn't have posted at all.

    I'm loving racing straight up against good competition, both regionally and nationally this year. I won't ever race on index again, neither solo or pro- solo, even if it means selling a car I like for one I don't. Not worth doing otherwise.

    If they have match tours next year I might go , but I will head home at the end of day 1. If I end up in a pro bump class I might go, but it would just be for the practice. probably I wouldn't even go.

    Life is to short to autocross on index.
    hanhenze
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    12 Aug 2014 01:31 PM
    Posted By Forcednduckshn on 11 Aug 2014 02:16 PM

    I will never, ever, race someone on index, and would never presume that I outdrove, or was outdriven by someone because of my PAX ranking. I personally believe the PAX has grown in to something in our sport that is pretty negative only breeds misunderstanding by those on the inside and outside that think PAX can be used as accurate means to assess talent.

    No disrespect to Rick Ruth, I thank you for your service to our community and sport. But I do believe our sport would be much better off without it, generally speaking.

    Thanks,
    Total agreement! Class competition without index is what got me into Solo and that's where my focus is.

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