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Last Post 29 Aug 2014 05:12 PM by  Alan Dahl
NA Solstice in BS ?
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sam8white
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19 Aug 2014 12:39 PM

    1st, let me say I'm not a serious solo'er.   I'm a serious road racer, familiar w/ road race GCR, not Solo.

    But I would appreciate a serious answer.............

     

    I very occasionally compete with a bone stock NA Solstice,  with a local group that uses primarily SCCA rules, except they've kept R compound tires out of Stock classes.   Sounds like the new Street classes intent.....based on the little I've recently learned.

    Last couple years, I was classed CS, and against MX5's a BRZ etc, and would finish a strong upper midpack, and seemed we were all pretty competitive, and on the same page, and it seemed fair level playing field.

    I was VERY surprised last weekend to get thrown into BS, and told about some realignment,  which seemed ok, until seeing that the mx5's and FRS and BRZ are all still classed in CS.   

    My experience for the day, the car is not competitive in BS.

    Why they heck would a non ZOK, non turbo, Solstice, get pushed out of a class the BRZ/FRS are in, when it has less power and weighs more?  

    RWD NA 4cyl 2seaters all in the same class would make sense to me..... or am I missing something?

     

     

    gary p
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    19 Aug 2014 03:22 PM
    Compared to a BRZ, you still have 1" wider wheels, a vastly superior double-wishbone suspension, and more torque.  The weight difference is only ~100 lbs. For a while there, Z0K non-turbos were regularly putting down BS-beating times in CS so it's not that far-fetched that all N/A Kappa cars were moved up.
    MrAWD
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    19 Aug 2014 03:46 PM
    Posted By gary p on 19 Aug 2014 03:22 PM
    RWD NA 4cyl 2seaters all in the same class would make sense to me..... or am I missing something?


    S2000: RWD, NA, 4 cyl, 2 seater - seem like perfect match to me! C5: RWD. NA, 8 cyl, 2 seater - this is what it does not fit here, but everyone knows those are undrivable and fall apart on street tires...right! Let's talk about power/torque to weight ratio now and how big wheels and tires each car has!
    drdisque
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    19 Aug 2014 06:18 PM
    Note that MX-5 MSR's were also moved up to BS.
    conevadr
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    19 Aug 2014 09:39 PM

    While an understandable case can be made for bumping the Z0Ks out of CS, I'm not sure why the standard NA version was also booted. 

     

    George M

    93Rubie
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    19 Aug 2014 10:56 PM
    This is my personal opinion but I think the Solstice Z0K's and Mazda MX5 MSR's got moved because the SEB is tired of "trunk kit" cars like those and the Honda S2000CR. Limited production, hard to find, and $$$$ when you do. Hence, they got buried in classes where they cannot dominate like they did before. Ex. Old B Stock, if you didn't have a Honda S2000 CR, don't even show up. That is truly a BS situation.

    As far as S2000's and C5 Corvettes and what not....well even in my little humble region we have had quite the showing of S2000's in B Street and I think Steel Cities has as well. My C4 Corvette is also in B Street and its a very even match at least with drivers that are comparable to myself. C5's might be a bit of a overdog but the gearing hurts them. In fact my C4 has slightly shorter gearing and wears bigger front wheels and tires. However, my car weighs more.

    The MSR's and Z0K's I doubt will be ran by competitive folks. They are maybe overclassed but again back to my "trunk kit" theory. I assume the SEB wants cars that are available and easy to obtain, not rare expensive "packages". If that is the theory then I agree with it. No one is ever going to be completely happy with the class rules. We in the SCCA are not even that bad with rules, go to a dirt track some time..............sheeesh you'd swear they made a living at it!!
    snaponbob
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    20 Aug 2014 09:08 AM

    The Solstice 2.4 Z0K was ABSOLUTELY NOT a trunk kit car. The Mazda certainly was. As for the Solstice being "only" 100 pounds heavier than the "twins", I would like to see THAT on paper. The non-Z0K 2.4 Solstice and the 2.4 Sky are hopeless in B/S. ANY comparisons of the FE2 suspension Kappas to the "twins" will expose a laundry list of items that show the the "twins" to vastly superior to the Kappas.  

    sam8white
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    20 Aug 2014 11:20 AM
    Posted By drdisque on 19 Aug 2014 06:18 PM
    Note that MX-5 MSR's were also moved up to BS.

    So using that logic, just the ZOK should have been moved to BS, not the plain Jane Solstice ?

     

    And Gary,  wondering your opinion on the 'twins' design flaws that makes a Sol have " a vastly superior double-wishbone suspension,"

     

    Are there formulas that involve HP/Torque/weight/contact patch etc for classing cars?  or is it just a consensus of potential?  or is it more based on drivers success?

    gary p
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    20 Aug 2014 07:08 PM
    Posted By snaponbob on 20 Aug 2014 09:08 AM

    As for the Solstice being "only" 100 pounds heavier than the "twins", I would like to see THAT on paper. 

    http://www.kbb.com/compare-cars/specs/2007-pontiac-solstice-84193-vs-2013-scion-fr_s-374564-vs-2013-subaru-brz-377540/

     

    Shows only ~50 lb difference, but I believe the curb weights listed for the FBRSZ twins are with the 6-speed automatic. Specs for the manual twins are ~45 lbs less.    


    gary p
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    20 Aug 2014 07:39 PM
    Posted By 8white on 20 Aug 2014 11:20 AM 

     

    And Gary,  wondering your opinion on the 'twins' design flaws that makes a Sol have " a vastly superior double-wishbone suspension,"


    It's not a "flaw," just struts vs a coilover double wishbone with excellent geometry and adjustability. 

     

     
    Posted By 8white on 20 Aug 2014 11:20 AM
    Posted By drdisque on 19 Aug 2014 06:18 PM
    Note that MX-5 MSR's were also moved up to BS.

    So using that logic, just the ZOK should have been moved to BS, not the plain Jane Solstice ?

    ......

     

    Are there formulas that involve HP/Torque/weight/contact patch etc for classing cars?  or is it just a consensus of potential?  or is it more based on drivers success?

     

     Honestly, all three things go into the process; specs, consensus of potential, and results. Add to that a dollop of politics and a dash of marketing .... i.e. trying to favorably class cars that are likely to bring new members to the sport.  Cars that are out of production (i.e. Solstice) don't really do that so they don't get the benefit of the doubt that a new, affordably priced car that's highly popular with a broad range of enthusiasts (i.e. Toybaru Twins) might. 

     

    I have no delusions that a non-Z0K NA Solstice can be Nationally competitive in B Street.  Not every car can be competitive.  The question is how competitive it might be in CS and what affect it might have on the class if it proved to be THE car for the class.  I think the car could be quite competitive.  Dan Stone ran quite well in a "standard" Solstice before the Z0K and MSR's came to dominate the class.  My gut tells me the Solstice loses less on street tires than the non-Z0K NC miata because of the greater potential negative camber up front, the better camber gain on roll, and the 18X8" wheels.    The SCCA kinda wants the BRZ/FRS and current model miata to have a competitive class to play so I'm not surprised they won't let 5-years-out-of-production car from a defunct brand into the class if there's any chance it might be better.
    sam8white
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    22 Aug 2014 02:11 PM

    Thanks for the replies and inputs, I appreciate your thoughts.   

    I 'understand'  it a bunch more now,   

    Coming from my Formula class where piston/rod/piston/flywheel etc weights are regulated on a spec cam & compression ratio, I see solo has a whole lot more 'compromises' in trying to level the field.


    Maybe I'll have to trade my plane jane solstice in for a GXP,  or a BRZ  


    or more likely, understand the limitations of classing, and just have more fun next time.

    jwbrockman
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    22 Aug 2014 03:45 PM
    If the feeling is that the Z0K has a chance, but the base car doesn't, can't the base car be swapped up to Z0K spec for a reasonable cost? Forgive me if I am wrong about that, I am not well versed in Solstice, but I thought this was not a scenario like the S2000CR where a package swap is not feasible/possible. If that is the case, this seems like the typical best of breed reasoning that puts all NA Miatas in ES with R-Package cars, and so on.
    Alan Dahl
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    29 Aug 2014 05:12 PM
    IMHO the only Solstice that still has a shot at being competitive in Street class is the GXP Z0K in AS. AS and BS are not that far apart PAX-wise and I think street tires might not hurt the GXP as much as other cars. I have my GXP Z0K for sale at the moment but if it doesn't sell I'm tempted to give it a try just to see.
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