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Last Post 14 Oct 2014 04:42 PM by  Alan Dahl
DS, GS, HS Class Mixup
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kyoo
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06 Sep 2014 07:17 PM

    Was thinking about this at nationals and since I got home - I wrote up a rough draft of a proposal, and thought I would bring it here to see what people thought. Warning: these are big changes, but I genuinely believe it would be good for SCCA and participation overall:

    Proposal for 2015 Solo Season


    Purpose: Class rearrangement for higher participation numbers for regional and national level events, as well as “phasing” out some older hard to find cars for newer ones.


    This proposal is to make DS the new turbo-awd class (currently they are all in BS). Moving these cars from BS to DS will give them and their future versions a place to play. These cars are very popular with strong followings, and specializing a place for them will increase participation. Then, make GS the new “hot hatch” class. Move the current DS dominant Audi TT & Subaru WRX into GS, to compete with the FoST. Numbers show the TT, WRX, and FoST are a perfect matchup. Finally, move the Celica into HS to compete with the Mini. I believe these moves will appease all groups.


    DS: Move the current turbo-awd & other cars in BS into DS: i.e., 04-15 Subaru WRX STI, 2003-2015 Evo, 09+ Audi TTS, RS4, RS5, Golf R, etc. No STIs even bothered to show up in BS, despite everyone assuming AWD would have a huge advantage now that cars are on street tires. This would be a great matchup where the STI, Evo, or TTS would have a good chance of winning the class. These cars just aren't competitive in BS, and giving them a place to compete would be great for the followers of these cars.


    GS: Some people have called for the FoST to be moved to DS - I believe the reverse will be better for participation numbers: make GS the new “hot hatch” class, moving the current DS dominant Audi TT & Subaru WRX into the class, to compete with the Focus ST. Also move DS cars like the Mazdaspeed3, Integra, Mini Cooper S into GS. This will be a great competition for GS, with a great mix of cars where any of these could win. This will allow the older 3.2 TT to be phased out in favor of the newer FoST & WRX.


    HS: Move the Celica from GS to HS, otherwise leave HS unchanged. This will make HS a solid 2 car class, and 2014 has shown there are still strong numbers for the Mini and the Celica. Go from there to see how things play out.


    I realize these are significant changes, and soon after the street tire switch, but I think these changes will be good for the future of the classes & participation in general, as well as supporting newer cars vs. running the same, dated, and extremely hard to find/special edition versions of cars. I also think now is the perfect time to make changes like these, before people get settled, and then change things all over again.


    Thoughts?

    Mrsideways
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    06 Sep 2014 10:05 PM

    Posted By <a href='http://www.sccaforums.com/user-profile/userid/41166' class='af-profile-link'>kyoo</a> on 06 Sep 2014 07:17 PM
    <p>Was thinking about this at nationals and since I got home - I wrote up a rough draft of a proposal, and thought I would bring it here to see what people thought. Warning: these are big changes, but I genuinely believe it would be good for SCCA and participation overall:</p>
    <p><span id="docs-internal-guid-9e768361-4d3d-972c-e960-fb1378a84421"></span></p>
    <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">Proposal for 2015 Solo Season</span></p>


    <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">Purpose</span><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">: Class rearrangement for higher participation numbers for regional and national level events, as well as “phasing” out some older hard to find cars for newer ones. </span></p>


    <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">This proposal is to make DS the new turbo-awd class (currently they are all in BS). Moving these cars from BS to DS will give them and their future versions a place to play. These cars are very popular with strong followings, and specializing a place for them will increase participation. Then, make GS the new “hot hatch” class. Move the current DS dominant Audi TT & Subaru WRX into GS, to compete with the FoST. Numbers show the TT, WRX, and FoST are a perfect matchup. Finally, move the Celica into HS to compete with the Mini. I believe these moves will appease all groups.</span></p>


    <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">DS: Move the current turbo-awd & other cars in BS into DS: i.e., 04-15 Subaru WRX STI, 2003-2015 Evo, 09+ Audi TTS, RS4, RS5, Golf R, etc. No STIs even bothered to show up in BS, despite everyone assuming AWD would have a huge advantage now that cars are on street tires. This would be a great matchup where the STI, Evo, or TTS would have a good chance of winning the class. These cars just aren't competitive in BS, and giving them a place to compete would be great for the followers of these cars.</span></p>


    <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">GS: Some people have called for the FoST to be moved to DS - I believe the reverse will be better for participation numbers: make GS the new “hot hatch” class, moving the current DS dominant Audi TT & Subaru WRX into the class, to compete with the Focus ST. Also move DS cars like the Mazdaspeed3, Integra, Mini Cooper S into GS. This will be a great competition for GS, with a great mix of cars where any of these could win. This will allow the older 3.2 TT to be phased out in favor of the newer FoST & WRX. </span></p>


    <p dir="ltr" style="margin-top: 0pt; margin-bottom: 0pt;"><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">HS: Move the Celica from GS to HS, otherwise leave HS unchanged. This will make HS a solid 2 car class, and 2014 has shown there are still strong numbers for the Mini and the Celica. Go from there to see how things play out.</span></p>


    <span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">I realize these are significant changes, and soon after the street tire switch, but I think these changes will be good for the future of the classes & participation in general, as well as supporting newer cars vs. running the same, dated, and extremely hard to find/special edition versions of cars. I also think now is the perfect time to make changes like these, before people get settled, and then change things all over again.</span>
    <p><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">

    </span></p>
    <p><span style="color: #000000; background: transparent;">Thoughts?</span></p>


    I dont see whats wrong with the current classing. The only class that seemed odd to me was AS... I mean what is a z06 doing running against an S2000. I can see a regular c5 maybe but not a c6 or zo6. When working course I did a highly accurate measurement for the drag strip finish and the vettes beat everything in the class from the final cone to the finish line by over a second. Now that would be fine if the vette handled like a boat.... but it doesn't.
    As for gs. Look at the makes and models and how close they were for 3rd through oh say 8th or so. Nothing looks broken there except maybe and big maybe the two fost's that ran away with it. That said I think I could have got closer to them on the west course had o not botched my 1st run and who knows who else in the class is saying the same thing.
    But I say leave it.
    kyoo
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    07 Sep 2014 10:40 AM
    the only thing "wrong" is that there's no real definition for the classing. You could say the same thing about GS if you put all the underdogs from that class into HS. You could say the same thing even if you put the DS winners into GS and looked at the results. If the FoST > DS, GS-HS merger is likely, I think what I proposed is a better option as far as increasing #s
    drdisque
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    Posts:317


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    07 Sep 2014 11:48 AM
    2 things:

    GS isn't broke, don't fix it.

    Strong HS participation with the switch to street tires proves the class should continue to exist.

    Moving the out-of-production Celica to HS where it will be an overdog is the exact opposite of what the SAC is trying to do.
    Z3papa
    Advanced Member
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    Posts:525


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    07 Sep 2014 04:58 PM
    Unless or until the BS boost buggies run a number of times at Nat's and other Tour events, they have little basis to claim that they can't compete in BS.
    gareno
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    Posts:427


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    07 Sep 2014 05:56 PM

    I'd say...move the Focus ST to DS, and then leave everything else alone.

    bidaci
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    07 Sep 2014 07:07 PM
    If you move the boosted Subaru into GS then I assume the NA 2.5's would go to HS and play with the newer NA 2.0's? I like the idea of moving faster cars up (ie FoST) and leaving some place for is slower guys to play.
    cindy42
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    07 Sep 2014 10:14 PM

    FS is the screwed up class.  Regular 3 series BMW's with M3's...V6 Camaro/Mustang with the same V8 counterparts.  Some poor local guy showed up with his 325 to get matched to an M3??  What was the point in moving all the RWD cars out of DS?  They just got thrown into FS without much thought.

     

    drdisque
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    07 Sep 2014 10:23 PM
    The thought was that most of those cars were previously in DS without much of a chance, and they got moved to FS, where they at least have more of a chance. I imagine that many of the low power BMW's should be moved to GS though. The newer V6 Mustangs and Camaros make 300 hp, so I don't see an issue with them being in FS.
    cashmo
    Advanced Member
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    Posts:966


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    07 Sep 2014 11:54 PM
    What was the point in moving all the RWD cars out of DS?  They just got thrown into FS without much thought.
    I can assure you there was a great deal of thought that went into the decision.  Is your position that the 325 guy would've been better off facing AWD TT's and WRX's on 140 tw tires?
    cashmo
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    Posts:966


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    07 Sep 2014 11:55 PM
      I imagine that many of the low power BMW's should be moved to GS though.

    It's been discussed but where to draw the line?

    Any move combining the FoST and TT/WRX would seem to bury the FoST which has breathed life into GS.  One might be more inclined to move some GS also rans down to HS instead.  But again, where to draw the line?

     


    Mr Yuck
    New Member
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    Posts:10


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    08 Sep 2014 12:03 PM
    GS is currently a spec-FoST class (Unless everybody were to suddenly buy a $45k Volvo), which is a real shame because the 500 Abarth, FiST, and GTi could make it a really interesting class.

    Plus I'm shopping for a new car, and those cars are what top my price range, therefore, my selection is limited to the FoST.

    By moving just the FoST to DS, it would open up GS to the current crop of hot hatches. FoST would do just fine in DS.

    I fully expect, according to my interpretation of Murphy's Law, that the FoST will get moved to DS eventually, immediately if I were to buy one.

    I was planning on waiting to buy a new car until I knew for sure where the FoST would sit in classing for the next year or so, and then some guy in an F150 decided to go all MR MAGOO into the back of my wife's Volvo.
    CSP21
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    08 Sep 2014 12:23 PM
    The more interesting scenario is moving those cars that are slower than the FoST/Celica down to HS to play with the Mini. Not sure about the GTI, it hasn't been tried much and it had interesting results this past week.
    kyoo
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    08 Sep 2014 12:30 PM
    Glad to see there's at least some discussion/consideration of something.

    The GTI result is especially interesting, because it is a mark6 with less power and undefeatable traction control. Mark7 gets a power bump with the Performance Package, as well as a real(!) mechanical LSD.

    If the FoST to DS is inevitable, I say just move the TT and WRX to GS, move FiST etc to HS, and make DS a class for something else. My original thought was that it would be a great class for the turbo awd's, but there has been some opposition to that. Could be anything that defines a class well. I thought maybe the twins, but I still think they should be put in ES. So, I still think DS could be a good spec STI/Evo class with a strong following. May just be me. Other oppositions to the idea included that, the belief is the Audi TT & the WRX are still a step above the FoST, and that that would especially come into play at a ProSolo. But again, if the move is inevitable, I think there can be better alternatives than Fost > DS & GS-HS merge
    CSP21
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    08 Sep 2014 12:33 PM
    I have pretty good experience with the DS cars and I don't see the FoST doing well in that class. I don't get the impression so far that much of the SAC thinks that is a good fit. The FoST in GS seems to be reviving the class so I would guess the discussion will focus more about what we do with those other less competitive cars in GS and the future of HS.
    kyoo
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    08 Sep 2014 12:40 PM
    Thanks for the insight. If FoST > DS wasn't going to happen, my proposal is pretty much moot
    CSP21
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    08 Sep 2014 12:43 PM
    I wouldn't say it isn't going to happen, I'm just one SAC member as is Jeff. However I didn't hear anyone else pushing for this so much but we will go into our meeting this week with open minds. We appreciate the thoughts/suggestions, after all its OUR club, not just a committee's.
    drdisque
    Basic Member
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    Posts:317


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    08 Sep 2014 12:44 PM
    I have a proposal in the works to move all the Heavy FWD full-size and mid-size cars in GS to HS.
    kyoo
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    08 Sep 2014 01:18 PM
    Posted By Tom Reynolds on 08 Sep 2014 12:43 PM
    I wouldn't say it isn't going to happen, I'm just one SAC member as is Jeff. However I didn't hear anyone else pushing for this so much but we will go into our meeting this week with open minds. We appreciate the thoughts/suggestions, after all its OUR club, not just a committee's.

    Thanks. I think much of the pushback was based on the belief that the FoST wouldn't keep up with the TT/WRX. If their merger is to happen (as you said, no idea yet but may know soon), perhaps people may have a different opinion. Regardless, I'm with the people as far as keeping the FoST competitive, as it's been great for the club. Going along with my original thought then, perhaps leave the TT in DS, and move the WRX, MCS, etc. into GS and move the boost buggies (I think the 15+ STI will be especially popular), into DS from BS and see how that plays out.

    Then, move some of the also-rans in GS to HS, to give them a more competitive landscape. I'm half tempted to say move the FiST into HS too, and I even drive an HS Mini. I would definitely say to move the 14+ base cooper into HS* as well. Just thoughts I'm throwing out there. I'm not thinking about who currently drives what and who wins in what at nationals, and don't really care, more thinking about new people and newer cars getting into the sport. I know two guys in MCS's wondering why they're racing in DS against the WRX when the FoST is tearing it up in GS.

    Mr Yuck
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    08 Sep 2014 06:25 PM
    If also-rans in GS are moved to HS, where will the rental cars that are playing locally in HS play? At least for my area, most of the Minis broke down on their way to the event. A stock Mazda2/3, Yaris, FoSE, etc is still a blast to drive.

    $13k Momentum cars should not need to have $6k worth of prep dumped into them to be fun at autoX.

    Disclaimer: I have no dog in this fight, except if the FoST gets moved, I might be more likely to buy a FiST or Abarth for my wife. (She wants something with a magical PAX so she doesn't have to beat everyone in the open ladies class by such a large margin)
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