PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 14 Oct 2014 04:42 PM by  Alan Dahl
DS, GS, HS Class Mixup
 139 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 4 of 7 << < 23456 > >>
Author Messages
sjfehr
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:634


--
02 Oct 2014 05:57 AM

I'm really disappointed that with all the proposed changes, Boxster S/Cayman S were still allowed to sit as also-rans, buried under the GT3, Elise, C7 and now GTR at the bottom of SS, too, when they'd be so much better suited as also-rans in AS.  2008 Cayman S is an AS car, but 2009 is feared to be so fast it has to be buried?  

 

Maybe SCCA just hates VAG roadsters

gareno
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:427


--
02 Oct 2014 08:23 AM

I guess I have 2 problems with the process. Most importantly, is the fact that this didn't go out for member comment. And a group of people behind closed doors make these decisions.

Secondly, that this statement is used..favorable classification for cars that are widely available and popular with enthusiasts. Cars that are difficult to acquire, difficult to own, etc. are generally going to be classed less favorably than cars that are easy to own. Cars that are older and have a limited parts supply are generally going to be classed less favorably than cars that are still supported by their manufacturer.  Then they move all these old cars that are very difficult to find (in good rust free condition), with a parts books still on microfiche, that are hard to source factory OEM parts for, with some manufacturers that don't even support anymore, and move them to the most favorable class.

And on top of that, they leave the Focus ST in GS (which beat all of the DS cars) then move a popular DS car (the TT) to BS. Leaving what I think is a clear DS contender in GS. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

John9546
New Member
New Member
Posts:10


--
02 Oct 2014 08:44 AM

I am also dismayed by the speed this all happened.  All of us converting from Stock to Street spent 2014 doing so.  I spent the whole year running local events on the Hoosiers I had left over and then started to convert to the street tire class at National level and Division level events.  It was a transition year for all of us in Stock/Street.  What was the hurry to change Street classifications now?  We are all still sorting out the street tires.  Remember that street tires could be 140 hardness during 2014 and next year it will be 200 hardness.  We were all under the impression there would be one complete year in the Street classes with firmed up rules before adjustments.  This meant 2014 was the transition year and 2015 would be the year to carefully look at major classification changes.  Any changes would be "proposed" allowing normal member input and comment.  This did not happen and so here we are.

CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
02 Oct 2014 09:28 AM
The problem is you have your opinions. The majority of two committees of your peers made up by about 16 people in total didn't agree with you. Even within those committees there were split votes. It is not a perfect system but it is the one we have. We read every letter and we discuss at great length almost daily via forum plus the scheduled monthly phone calls, etc. I do sympathize for you John but to make comments like this is a conspiracy make me wonder about perspective. We have more than enough different view points that no one is getting their way just because they like it, majority still rules. So if you want to discuss, great I'm glad to do so. If you want to make claims like that, we can withdraw from the conversation completely.

As for the moving of the slower GS cars to HS with the FiST, we can't win either way. We move those and you say we moved old cars that don't matter, can't get parts for, etc...we leave them and people will say we are out of touch with their performance potential. Certain cars people have figured out there was higher risk to move them from GS to HS so we didn't. Also some of your performance perceptions were not shared by the majority of the SAC and apparently the SEB as well.
John9546
New Member
New Member
Posts:10


--
02 Oct 2014 10:05 AM

Tom, it is not an opinion that the 2008-2014 Audi TT Quattro being moved from D Street to B Street will be automatically handicapped 6 - 2.5 seconds.  All we want is an answer on why that decision was made.  I promise not to make any more possible decision scenarios on why the SEB or the SAC made that decision.  I will stay on point with my question and allow those representatives to explain their decision and possible repair.  I do appreciate your comment and look forward to meeting with you to discuss further.

rodhx
New Member
New Member
Posts:89


--
02 Oct 2014 10:08 AM
Posted By John LaRandeau on 02 Oct 2014 08:44 AM

We were all under the impression there would be one complete year in the Street classes with firmed up rules before adjustments.  This meant 2014 was the transition year and 2015 would be the year to carefully look at major classification changes.  Any changes would be "proposed" allowing normal member input and comment.  This did not happen and so here we are.

My view is we had the "complete year" to evaluate since nationals effectively ends the meaningful season. We were told all along the street class would be reevaluated and changes were likely. Why not do it now? It gives us the longest possible time to prepare for 2015.

vtecyo
New Member
New Member
Posts:32


--
02 Oct 2014 10:16 AM
Posted By gareno on 02 Oct 2014 08:23 AM

I guess I have 2 problems with the process. Most importantly, is the fact that this didn't go out for member comment. And a group of people behind closed doors make these decisions.

Secondly, that this statement is used..favorable classification for cars that are widely available and popular with enthusiasts. Cars that are difficult to acquire, difficult to own, etc. are generally going to be classed less favorably than cars that are easy to own. Cars that are older and have a limited parts supply are generally going to be classed less favorably than cars that are still supported by their manufacturer.  Then they move all these old cars that are very difficult to find (in good rust free condition), with a parts books still on microfiche, that are hard to source factory OEM parts for, with some manufacturers that don't even support anymore, and move them to the most favorable class.

And on top of that, they leave the Focus ST in GS (which beat all of the DS cars) then move a popular DS car (the TT) to BS. Leaving what I think is a clear DS contender in GS. Just doesn't make any sense to me.

THIS.

serendib
New Member
New Member
Posts:36


--
02 Oct 2014 10:26 AM
Posted By rodhx on 02 Oct 2014 10:08 AM
Posted By John LaRandeau on 02 Oct 2014 08:44 AM

We were all under the impression there would be one complete year in the Street classes with firmed up rules before adjustments.  This meant 2014 was the transition year and 2015 would be the year to carefully look at major classification changes.  Any changes would be "proposed" allowing normal member input and comment.  This did not happen and so here we are.

My view is we had the "complete year" to evaluate since nationals effectively ends the meaningful season. We were told all along the street class would be reevaluated and changes were likely. Why not do it now? It gives us the longest possible time to prepare for 2015.

 

Posted by serendib:

Just one issue with changing now is that you could run TWR 140 tires in 2014 along with TWR 200.   Street Tire manufacturers also spent 2014  being creative.  The SEB and SAC should have waited until the end of 2015 before making big changes to street classes.  However,  if there really are/were data that suggested a big change for 2015 that should have been an open process for member comment and input.  I agree with John and Greg that there appears to be a process in play that makes no sense and is not taking into account event results that is available to all of us.



marka
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:2258


--
02 Oct 2014 10:28 AM

Howdy,

Posted By John LaRandeau on 01 Oct 2014 11:03 PM

The 2008-2014 Audi TT Quattros are still available.  It is available in 2015.  Parts are all over the place.  They are not limited.  If you want a 2008 - 2009 Audi TT 3.2 Quattro there are several on ebay right now.  Also they are in dealerships all over the country.  You could fill up a D Street class if folks wanted to by them.

I believe you've answered your own question.  The Audi in DS was the acknowledged dominant car for a number of years.  And yet, the class didn't fill up because folks didn't want to buy them.  I think you might need to read Dave's article again.

Mark

CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
02 Oct 2014 10:38 AM
Mark beat me to the punch on the key point.

I owned a TT (Wilcox's old car) and my co-driver has a WRX. We ran them back to back to test as we'd rather run the TT for non-Pros but found the TT was the better car all around for autox, but less desirable to own IMO. The margin wasn't close if there was no launch, it was the defacto car to have in DS, the 2015 WRX which I've also been lucky enough to drive will be likely faster than the outgoing model but has some quirks that will hold it back a bit.


Remember the SEB has a vacancy for 2015, apply now if you want to have a direct affect representing the membership in such matters. The SAC will likely have some in 2016.
serendib
New Member
New Member
Posts:36


--
02 Oct 2014 10:54 AM

I have driven the TTQ, FoST, Cobalt SSTC back to back on racetrack asphalt at New Orleans Motrosports Park's Autocross Pad.  That should be a separate thread since it resulted in THREE people buying FoST's purely for Autocross.

Tom - I hope I am not misreading what your saying but it appears that your experience does not make the case for moving the TT to BS and leaving (at the very least) the 2015 WRX in DS.  I have driven the 2015 WRX but not back to back with the others I mentioned above.  I truly expected Wayne O to win DS Nationals in the 2015 WRX. 

To the original point:  The 2008-2010 Audi TT Quattro 3.2 has no chance of being competitive in BS purely based on event results.  My "opinion" is that the WRX's and the TTQ on street tires SHOULD be a close match and results will also be course and driver dependent.  Furthermore,  it is ludicrous to move cars by looking at the performance of "alien" drivers such as Mark Smith or the late Jim Feinburg.

CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
02 Oct 2014 11:01 AM
The TT and the WRX are not close. Driven all three and that was the feedback I provided. The 2015 narrows the gap some but wouldn't close it. Drive all three with their current maximum prep and let me know if you disagree.

Cars are classed by their maximum potential as one of the factors, not average performance. The driver in them let us know if it might be prepared and driven at maximum potential but we don't class strictly because it was a fast driver.
vtecyo
New Member
New Member
Posts:32


--
02 Oct 2014 11:03 AM
I think the TT crowd wants (and imo deserves) to get some semi-factual logic pertaining to why the car got moved. Dave Hardy's article is very well written (and appreciated), but it is clear that the logic didn't apply to all classes (HS). Anyway, lets apply the article to DS. 25% of nats DS was the TT. Does anyone think they are going to participate in BS in 2015? No. I suppose, then, that the hope is people will buy the 2015 WRX, which is more expensive and currently harder to find than a TT...
CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
02 Oct 2014 11:37 AM
"Cars that are popular with our participants are generally going to be classed more favorably than cars that are not. "
vtecyo
New Member
New Member
Posts:32


--
02 Oct 2014 12:12 PM
Point being... the TT is not popular?

I guess 25% is not popular.

In 2010, both the TT and WRX accounted for measly percentages of DS. Now, they are the biggest blocks. That should indicate the percieved overdog (TT) was growing in popularity, while at the same time, not discouraging the popular car (wrx). Lets not forget, the "popular cars" of DS used to be the FWDs (cobalt, mini, ITR). Those cars have clearly been disenfranchised with the rise of the TT and WRX. If DS had a popularity problem, imo the FWDs should have gone to GS. That would have only grown GS, while simeltaneously allowing DS to continue to grow with WRXs and TTs.

 

Just one man's opinion.

JT_TT
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:310


--
02 Oct 2014 02:15 PM
This whole move of the TT out of DS into BS is very surprising for me! I was really really hoping that with the introduction of the 2015 WRX, and the fact that it has been dominant this year in current trim, that they were going to move the TTS (more even power numbers) down to DS to play with the WRX. I personally was about to purchase a 2008-09 TT if it stayed par, or move to the TTS just to come out again next year, after somewhat successfully campaigning the MKI TT back in the day right after they moved it down from BS to finally make it competitive against the ITR's. This is a very sad state of affairs for DS because I for one have no desire to own a WRX and deal with their issues, culture, and the must buy new price tag, and now have made DS a one car class once again. Sadly not a member this year so my voice will not be heard by the SEB.
JT_TT
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:310


--
02 Oct 2014 02:16 PM
Oh yea...further compounding my frustrations my current HS Civic, which can be somewhat fun on local level with PAX, has now been rendered out of the "also ran" category down to why did he even show up....
spratte
New Member
New Member
Posts:6


--
02 Oct 2014 02:26 PM

I rarely post here, so forgive  blunders of etiquette or tradition.

Posted By Tom Reynolds on 02 Oct 2014 10:38 AM 
I owned a TT (Wilcox's old car) and my co-driver has a WRX. We ran them back to back to test as we'd rather run the TT for non-Pros but found the TT was the better car all around for autox, but less desirable to own IMO. The margin wasn't close if there was no launch, it was the defacto car to have in DS, the 2015 WRX which I've also been lucky enough to drive will be likely faster than the outgoing model but has some quirks that will hold it back a bit. 

Remember the SEB has a vacancy for 2015, apply now if you want to have a direct affect representing the membership in such matters. The SAC will likely have some in 2016.
Posted By Tom Reynolds on 02 Oct 2014 11:37 AM
"Cars that are popular with our participants are generally going to be classed more favorably than cars that are not. "
If I add those two statements together I get:

"Cars that are popular with our board members are generally going to be classed more favorably than cars that are not." 

Seriously though. This comes on the heels of acknowledging that a new model destined for the same class is going to be closing the perceived gap to the alleged over dog. And how is a car that makes up 25% of the class is unpopular with participants. Is every street class to be spec Ford ST or Subaru to be "popular?"

I've worked with a bunch of not-for-profits, so I know the thankless nature of volunteer work, but from our side of the spreadsheet, this appears to be, at best, misguided.

 

CSP21
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:308


--
02 Oct 2014 02:45 PM
Understood but again the majority disagreed. We'll see over the next few years if DS participation changes for better or worse if this was the right decision at the right time.
kyoo
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:320


--
02 Oct 2014 02:49 PM

IMO conditions are still prime to move the WRX to GS & bring the Evo, STI, TT, others down to DS for their own class. I've seen the argument that there aren't enough cars to back up a class like that, but it's obvious from the chatter the cars driven are dictated by the class itself.

 

In other words, if you class it (competitively), they will come. I guess it's no longer up for discussion though, so moot point now. For the next however many years, it looks like DS will be a spec WRX class and GS will (probably) be a spec FoST class

You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 4 of 7 << < 23456 > >>


SPS 88x31 Button G-Loc Button
Vorshlag 88x31 Button Leroy Engineering Micro Button
Sunoco 88x31 Button
Woodhouse Motorsports

Advertise on SCCAForums.com and reach thousands of visitors per day!

SafeRacer FREE SHIPPING over $99

Shop for Pirelli tires at Tire Rack. blank



Sunoco Bottom 468x60 Banner