Sunoco 468x60 Banner
PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 07 Mar 2016 12:37 AM by  nilfinite
2016 Camaro SS--no way its F-street, right?
 19 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Author Messages
Cito
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:583


--
17 Oct 2015 09:34 AM
    As I am sure many of us have, I have been reading every article I can on the 2016 Camaro SS, and it looks like Chevy has knocked one way out of the park with the car. Traditionally, it would be straight to F-street, or F-stock in the old days, for the Camaro, but the car seems like it is so good that I am not sure that is going to happen here. Interestingly, the Camaro is based on the Cadillac ATS chassis. The ATS 3.6 has already been classed, I think inappropriately so, in BS while the 2.0 ATS is in F-street, and the 2.5 ATS is in G-street. From what I can tell, the Camaro would appear to be a better car than the ATS given probable advantages in terms of tire size as well as perhaps other factors like being an evolution of the ATS chassis.

    I, of course, have no say in this matter, but am willing to provide an opinion and might write some letters. From looking at the classing structure as it is now, I would say that the Camaro SS would best fit in AS where the new Shelby GT350 and Boss 302 Laguna Seca and other "super" pony cars reside. One might argue that the Camaro V6 would go to BS with the V6 ATS, but I think that both of those cars and the 4-cylinder turbo Camaro should be put into FS.

    Now, I bleed Ford blue, so I have built in biases. I hate to say this, but I think the 2016 Camaro SS is probably superior to the Mustang GT in every way, and if I had to put down money for a new car, I would be hard pressed to find a valid reason to spend 37k on the Mustang versus the Camaro. Feel free to criticize me for not having driven the Camaro, that would be a very fair critique. I am basing my impressions on the numbers reported by the various car magazines, and those results may or may not relate to the autocross setting especially given the huge impact tires and improved dampers can have on these cars.

    Anyway, this is part of the bench racing silly season tradition of discussing classing of new cars.
    drdisque
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:317


    --
    18 Oct 2015 10:30 PM
    I'm inclined to believe that it will go to BS, not AS, but that's just me. If it is on paper what it looks like it could be, it would be a total overdog in FS. FS is in a really good place right now with the 1LE, E92 M3, E46 M3, and 2015+ mustang all very close and nationally competitive and the E82, E92 335i, 2011-2014 Mustang and non-1LE SS being almost as good. I think throwing a new bigger shark into the waters would upset such a great competitive balance they have going.
    mcynet
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:6


    --
    04 Dec 2015 06:55 PM
    2016 SS Camaro should be FS They have reduced the wheel size so instead of 11 inch wide rims like the 1LE it has 9" wide. Also the M3 is far and away the car to have in the class. it would give them a run, mustang GT track pack prepared would also be competitive if preped right. I have raced a 1LE in FS for 2 years and I can tell you that the M3 can kill me on any tight course you will have the same thing with 2016. I have test driven a 2016 and while it is better on a big track... (just slightly better than 1le) i doubt that it will be that much better than the 1LE on an autocross course you still have a big fat car on even smaller tires now. the weigh of the car is still more than the M3.
    sjfehr
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:634


    --
    05 Dec 2015 08:52 AM
    You can't throw every newer faster car into a higher street class to protect the old; that leads to stagnation and destroys categories. If it's the new standard V8 Camaro, it should go into FS.
    mcynet
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:6


    --
    05 Dec 2015 04:35 PM
    I agree 100% the Camaro belongs in FS, as does the mustang. Maybe we can compete with the m3 this year.
    Z3papa
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:525


    --
    06 Dec 2015 08:12 AM
    The test on the Nat'ls TNT course wasn't on a wide open course by any means. It was a 38 second course with a 7 cone slalom. That said, I'd be surprised if the 16 Camaro does not make it into the FS mix.
    drdisque
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:317


    --
    06 Dec 2015 03:07 PM
    I wasn't aware that the widest wheel you could get on a 2016 Camaro was only 9". I change my opinion in that case. I'm OK with it in FS.

    The 305's on the former 1LE were an absolute killer on more wide open courses, especially on a poor surface.
    sjfehr
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:634


    --
    06 Dec 2015 05:08 PM
    Wheel-size.com shows 8x20 is standard with an optional 9x21 wheel? Is that accurate? I can't find anything authoritative, but if that's true, it's even worse: nobody makes a competitive 200TW tire in 20" or 21" sizes. You can use +/-1" to run 19" wheels, but they can only be 8" wide if the 9" wheels are only offered as 21s.

    The 9" thing just seems weird, though. Why did Chevy go to such pains to improve the performance of this car, but then put such a narrow wheel on it?

    http://www.wheel-size.com/size/chev...maro/2016/
    qcslvr30
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:81


    --
    11 Dec 2015 12:06 AM
    Pretty sure the SS my buddy got has 20x8.5f and 20x9.5 rear.

    Sent from my SM-N920P using Tapatalk
    Cito
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:583


    --
    11 Dec 2015 11:45 AM
    I appreciate the thoughtful remarks. The Camaro SS seems to be a wonderful new car. And, at the same time, the wheel size issue might hamper it enough not to be an outright overdog in FS. I am looking forward to seeing one run. Makes me wonder whether the 2016 FS Champ might have the same initials as the car that wins it.
    nilfinite
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:4


    --
    12 Dec 2015 09:43 PM
    Just like the F80/F81/F82 M3/M4 are in AS & E90/E91/E92 M3 are in FS: the 6th gen will likely be in AS & 5th gen will be in FS.

    If wheels is the only potential reason it should be in FS. Keep in mind Chevy is bound to create new option packages in for MY2017+ that will solve that problem. Wouldn't make sense for SCCA to put it in FS this year and then AS the second those option packages come out.

    Doesn't make sense to put the 6th gen in FS just because its supposed to be there. If that was the case, they would have done the same with the new M3/M4.
    ST///M
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:11


    --
    13 Dec 2015 12:06 PM
    FS, has always been a Pony Car class, which is why it does make sense for it to go there. The E46/E92 M3 sucked in AS/BS for 10 years before they got moved, but every new iteration of Pony car introduced for the past ???, except the special models, has gone straight to FS (and then even most of them have in the last 10-15 years: Shelby, 1LE, Boss 302, etc...). It's why the brand new 2015 Mustang GT that was substantially better than any before it, went straight to FS. My guess, is the only reason the later M3s are in FS now (and E36s still aren't), is because the M3 gained weight and since the pony cars have gone IRS, the power/weight/suspension are comparable. The 8" front wheels on E46s and 8.5" on E90/92s is another reason, and it's just another reason why I think the Camaro will not only be in FS, I don't see it being much of an overdog. It's better than the 1LE, but giving up 1.5" of front wheel width, better? We'll see. The M4 doesn't start out in FS because frankly, $70K M cars should be better than $40k Pony Cars, and it's a forced induction car now, not a naturally aspirated car. If it struggles like the ones before it did, maybe it gets reclassed, but I doubt.
    lost won
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:37


    --
    19 Dec 2015 01:26 AM
    It's a done deed. 2016 Camaro LT, SS to F Street. See Jan 2016 Fastrack, p. 30 Tech Bulletins/New car classings.

    The SS comes with 20x8.5 wheels Front. Still with some 19" RE-71Rs; it could be competitive.

    Still going to have to beat them Beemers in FS. And a well prepped 1LE, or Newstang could be trouble with the right driver.

    Should be interesting again this year. I'm still waiting for some affordable dampers for my S550.... STP??

    Happy Holidays everyone!
    John
    Z3papa
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:525


    --
    19 Dec 2015 08:08 AM
    I think this was the correct call. I suppose we will see how it plays out but realistically the wheel sizes will be the biggest factor in how the car does. The BS seemed to tolerate a little squeeze more so than other tires.
    nilfinite
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:4


    --
    10 Feb 2016 09:53 AM
    Alright, the 1LE package is out for the 6th gen.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/10/...-official/

    There will be a 1LE for both the V6 and V8. 6th gen V6 is supposed to be as fast as the 5th gen V8 on the track. Probably faster on an autocross with the weight advantage.

    The 6th gen V8 will probably be beating AS cars with magnetic dampers + 285 tires in the front and 305 tires in the back. Probably 10" wheels in the front and 11" wheels in the rear like the 5th gen 1LE wheels.

    Now that the skinny wheels aren't a problem anymore anymore, where should the 6th gen Camaro go now? I'm thinking the V8 should be in AS and V6 should be in FS.
    mcynet
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:6


    --
    18 Feb 2016 12:46 AM
    OK here is the science, we just had the argument in our local club.
    Here it is in real numbers.

    Racing is about Physics.... The Physics is mostly about hp to weight ratio, if those are equal, it's about connecting that power to the ground. Let’s compare.
    From our real world scales... The m3 with the right options is 414 hp and 3220 lb that is a ratio of 7.8 lb for 1 hp,

    The Camaro is 3745lb and 455 hp, giving it a ratio of 8.2lb for every 1 hp.

    Advantage to the m3 by 7%,

    Front Rim width which is the most important in autocross. The m3 wheel size is the exact same size as the current SS Camaro 8.5 front 9.5 rear, so on the current class the advantage is still M3.

    Your argument for the 1LE, boils down to is the tire size moving from 255 or 265 on the current camaro and m3 to a 285 1le front tires.
    In an re71r tire is a difference on .5 inches
    265, 9.6 inches,
    285 10.1 inches.
    So we multiple that by 2 it equals a total increase of 1 inch of tire, more for the Camaro.

    Advantage Camaro 5%.

    It dosent look like the huge disparity you think it is. The physics just isn’t there to support the argument.
    Now if you want to say the Camaro engineering has designed a better car, I would agree but to that argument. I would also say as time goes on better cars are made. The fact is the m3 is where it should be, and camaro is just catching up. You still have better visibility in an m3... It doesn’t mean we should change the class.
    nilfinite
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:4


    --
    18 Feb 2016 01:39 AM
    The Camaro's wheels will be 10" in the front and 11" in the rear. 1 inch wider on all corners vs the M3. You are also ignoring the torque/weight ratio where the M3 is far worse.

    http://www.solomatters.com/class_re...comparison

    This shows that the M3 and the Gen5 1LE are pretty comparable. Remove 200 lbs from the Gen 5 1LE, add a stiffer chassis, add 30 hp, better brakes and an E-diff. I wonder which car will do better...
    Z3papa
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:525


    --
    18 Feb 2016 07:19 AM

    Posted By mcynet on 18 Feb 2016 12:46 AM
    OK here is the science, we just had the argument in our local club.
    Here it is in real numbers.

    Racing is about Physics.... The Physics is mostly about hp to weight ratio, if those are equal, it's about connecting that power to the ground. Let’s compare.
    From our real world scales... The m3 with the right options is 414 hp and 3220 lb that is a ratio of 7.8 lb for 1 hp,

    The Camaro is 3745lb and 455 hp, giving it a ratio of 8.2lb for every 1 hp.

    Advantage to the m3 by 7%,

    Front Rim width which is the most important in autocross. The m3 wheel size is the exact same size as the current SS Camaro 8.5 front 9.5 rear, so on the current class the advantage is still M3.

    Your argument for the 1LE, boils down to is the tire size moving from 255 or 265 on the current camaro and m3 to a 285 1le front tires.
    In an re71r tire is a difference on .5 inches
    265, 9.6 inches,
    285 10.1 inches.
    So we multiple that by 2 it equals a total increase of 1 inch of tire, more for the Camaro.

    Advantage Camaro 5%.

    It dosent look like the huge disparity you think it is. The physics just isn’t there to support the argument.
    Now if you want to say the Camaro engineering has designed a better car, I would agree but to that argument. I would also say as time goes on better cars are made. The fact is the m3 is where it should be, and camaro is just catching up. You still have better visibility in an m3... It doesn’t mean we should change the class.

    You're analysis is seriously flawed. First and foremost, the lightest FS legal M3 will get down to 3460 not 3220. If you have a way to get 200# out of it legally, please advice. I think you are looking at E46 M3 numbers. Secondly, physics would be dictated more by torque to weight ratio and not HP to weight ratios or as some use "thrust to weight ratio" where the Gen 5 1LE had the M3 from 40 mph and up. Clearly, with less weight, that will only broaden. The other primary consideration in autocross is centered on effectively cornering and transitioning. If the numbers are true, the Gen 6 with 200-300# less weight which means better tire to weight ratios. Finally, when you combine the fact that with the release of larger tire sizes in the RE71R's will mean the 1LE's will be able to put greater use of those 10/11" wheels. People make huge assumptions based on 2015 Nat'l results but those are massively skewed. The major emphasis of power which would have played to the Camaro's strengths on east course was neutered by the wet conditions. Assuming those larger tire sizes come out, I'd suggest the Gen 5 1LE may return to the top along with Gen 6 non-1LE's.
    sjfehr
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:634


    --
    18 Feb 2016 05:46 PM
    Suspension and camber play huge roles, too; a car that comes from the factory with track suspension and a lot of camber adjustability is closer to Street Touring than Street and the performance shows. The M3 is held back by springs and camber, but we don't know yet what the 16 1LE will be like.

    If you just look at the weight, power and tire numbers, the 1LE is faster than several Super Street cars.
    nilfinite
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:4


    --
    07 Mar 2016 12:37 AM
    Another win for the Camaro. Tied the M4 on the track. This is the one with the "skinny tires" and no 1LE package.

    http://www.motortrend.com/news/comp...camaro-ss/

    When the 1LE option package comes out, the Camaro going to be ridiculous in FS. Hopefully the solo board realizes soon that they mis-classed the car.

    The 5th gen 1LE can get -2 camber stock. Assuming something similar or better for the 6th gen.
    You are not authorized to post a reply.


    Sunoco 88x31 Button
    Woodhouse Motorsports SPS 88x31 Button
    G-Loc Button Vorshlag 88x31 Button
    Leroy Engineering Micro Button

    Advertise on SCCAForums.com and reach thousands of visitors per day!

    SafeRacer FREE SHIPPING over $99

    Shop for Pirelli tires at Tire Rack. blank




    Sunoco Bottom 468x60 Banner