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Last Post 12 May 2016 11:37 AM by  Bama2014
Event 3 results
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Bama2014
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08 May 2016 03:55 PM
    Noticed some changes posted that before were not there. Any particular reason? I ask as my last run shows a +2 when it was called a clean run after the finish. Just curious when the call was made to add the +2.


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    sgreer78
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    08 May 2016 08:05 PM
    Over a week since the event I doubt anyone is going to remember. Also note that anything the announcer says is unofficial. There are late calls, penalties caught in audit, ect.
    java_osborn
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    08 May 2016 09:47 PM
    I was announcer in heat one and I know that I saw several cones that were recorded by the the Master logger that were not put in the computer.
    At that time then when they do the audit they verify that all of the cone calls were applied to the proper run.
    The announcer doesn't have the luxury of looking at both so they announced merely what is in the computer at that time and that's why we announced that these results are not official times.
    Bama2014
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    08 May 2016 10:22 PM
    Fair enough.


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    java_osborn
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    09 May 2016 12:02 AM
    Hi BamaLE ,

    Yes, really no disrespect, it is all good, but as fast and furious as Timing and Scoring is, one of the main goals, after accuracy, is to keep the course hot, so like I said, I (as announcer) knew of at least a few cone calls that did not make it in the computer, but I did see them on the master log, and several times I did state that "I thought there were cone calls on that run", but as an announcer I cannot get them put in the computer. Many events we are, in real time up to date with the actual cone call, and I am really sorry that we can't do that 100%, but most times keeping the event moving is the priority and there may be a some discrepancy, in what is called in and what is recorded in the computer, and on the website.
    FYI, both the "Course Controller" (the master radio guy) and the master logger take down cone calls (along with the master computer) are taking down the cone calls, and (keep me honest here), but it is like a 2 out of 3 wins, so any additional cone call has been logged by both the Master Logger and the Course Controller, but it was missed by the master computer, it will be added by the auditor after the fact.
    I guess my point is to give you an idea as to the rigger in which that cone call had to go through to end up showing up on your time. It is Not just one guy saying "Hay I thought I heard a cone call"
    In the End, don't feel bad about questioning the call, because you probably did not know the process we go through to add a cone to a run.
    Thanks,
    Jeff
    rkammerer
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    09 May 2016 12:53 PM

    Hi everyone,

          I thought I'd chime in on how Timing and Scoring works, and explain why there may be some differences between the tentative live timing results, and the actual audited official results.

          First thing to note is that all results posted at an event, or uploaded to the website as live timing updates, are tentative and unofficial.  Likewise, the announcer provides great commentary on the action, but also is announcing unofficial results.

          In the Timing Trailer, we have a few positions with specific duties.  Course Control is the voice you've heard on the radio when you work a corner.  Course Control notes the car numbers and class as you come to the line.  Course Control also records all cone calls from the Corner Captains, as well as DNFs and Reruns.  Course Log is considered the authority on penalties.

          Master Log also notes every car that comes to the line, and records the official time as each and every car finishes.  Master Log also listens in to the radio calls, and records penalties.  Master Log is the authority on run order / number of runs, and official times.  Master Log was instrumental at Event #1 - we had the timing software crash midway through Heat 3, losing the first few runs of all Heat 3 competitors.  I was able to re-enter all those runs off of the official times recorded by Master Log.

          Finally, Computer Log.  Computer Log does a little of both.  Computer Log enters in each car as they come to the line.  Times are recorded automatically, but Penalties are manually input.  Computer Log feeds our website Live Timing results, and feeds the Announcer information on runs/times/etc.  So, when Computer Log misses a penalty, both Live Time and Announcer miss the penalty also.  Unfortunately, Computer Log can get behind or miss penalties if the cone calls are coming in fast, or if cars are zipping by the Timing Trailer with hard-to-read numbering, or if there is a registration issue they are dealing with (usually driver using a different # than registered as, or 2-driver cars forgetting to change numbers).

          After the event, I perform the official Audit.  I verify that all Course Control penalties appear on the Master Log, noting any missed penalties.  Then, I compare the combined Course Control / Master Log against the Computer Log, correcting any penalties that Computer Log missed.

          I realize that it can be frustrating to see penalties added to what were believed to be clean runs.  At Event #3, I had the joy of auditing myself out of first place in CS, as Computer Log missed a cone called on my fastest run.  I'm working on ways to increase the accuracy of Computer Log.  One change we're trying at Event #4 is to move Announce out of the Timing Trailer - this should make it easier for Computer Log to hear radio calls.

          Finally, if anyone is really interested in helping increase our accuracy, email me and I'll get you added to the T&S email list so you can volunteer in the trailer.

          And BamaLE, if you want more info email me your car # and class, I can let you know what corner radioed in the cone call.

     Thanks,

    -Rob K.

    Autolex
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    09 May 2016 11:27 PM
    Rob,

    first off; thank you for the audit work, (and 1st place!).

    Shoot me an email: Alex at Narconis dot com

    myself and Carey Lizotte and Brian Glass are all I.T. engineers. I was actually discussing trying to sort some things out for the club and make things smoother with Chad Coker at the last event.

    Thanks,

    Alex
    flyguy
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    10 May 2016 10:52 AM
    It hasn't been explicitly mentioned but should be implied,the level of activity described in the trailer during an active heat is exactly the reason people should not approach the trailer while cars are running. The T&S workers simply cannot afford the distraction which greatly increases the chance that an error will be made or a cone call missed or erroneously applied.  We've probably been too lenient in not issuing penalties (DSQ) when it happens - and it happens all too frequently.
    christoc
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    10 May 2016 11:12 AM
    Posted By flyguy on 10 May 2016 10:52 AM
    It hasn't been explicitly mentioned but should be implied,the level of activity described in the trailer during an active heat is exactly the reason people should not approach the trailer while cars are running. The T&S workers simply cannot afford the distraction which greatly increases the chance that an error will be made or a cone call missed or erroneously applied.  We've probably been too lenient in not issuing penalties (DSQ) when it happens - and it happens all too frequently.

    I think keeping girlfriends and other folks out of the trailer would go a along way. The event I worked in there as announce, the amount of time we lost due to distractions caused was probably 15-20 minutes. 


    gilligan156
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    10 May 2016 12:35 PM

    I don't think we're ever going to effectively discipline 100+ people, with many new faces every event, to never approach the trailer during heats.

    Attendees, especially the novices, see the trailer as a highly visible the beacon of governance at an event, which makes sense as there are always people there, and usually they're experienced members who know what's going on.

    This all makes sense to me. Last event we had someone slice their finger open trying to get the Chump Car running who came up to us looking for first aid. I was master log, and we couldn't really spare anyone to tend to him, so I did my best to hunt for the first aid kit (which I never found) while marking cone calls. I radioed for someone to come help but nobody responded on the radio, so I was still frantically trying to help. If I were in his situation, where I had just injured myself and needed help, the trailer would be the place I would go straight to seeking help. I don't think I'd wander around hoping to find the safety steward, I would just assume that person was at the trailer and if not that the trailer could get ahold of that person quickly. I think I failed that guy, because I wasn't able to help him, and he ended up making a bandage out of napkins and electrical tape.

    Additionally, we set the precedent every morning that the trailer is where the event is administered from. Registration and work assignments are both done out of the trailer, so for people that don't know that they shouldn't distract T&S, they were already trained that morning that the the "headquarters" so to speak of the event is the trailer.

    I guess my point is that we really have ourselves to blame for the fact that people constantly approach the trailer during heats looking for help and questions answered. I believe it's a pretty natural behavior, and I think instead of trying vainly to train people to never bother the trailer during heats, we should accept that it's always going to happen and work around it.

    My suggestion is to either have a person as "T&S Support" at the trailer, whose dedicated job is to respond to people who approach the trailer to save T&S the distractions (as well as running other tasks T&S might need, like fetching Rob Kammerer lol), or if we can't afford the body, to lump that responsibility into the Announcer role, as it is the least-essential role in the trailer during T&S.

    Bama2014
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    10 May 2016 02:51 PM
    Rob K, appreciate the insight. Yes my last run was my fastest and yes I thought for sure it was clean. But as we see, we cannot go off live timing results and that is understood. Such is racing. I was car 99 in CAM-C. The point drop is what it is an next time we will be more aware of such.


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    flyguy
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    10 May 2016 07:47 PM

    I absolutely agree with Chris H that girlfriends,boyfriends or any extraneous people should never be in the trailer. Only T&S workers and event officials (as necessary) should be in the T&S area. After safety,the most accurate T&S possible is the most critical function of the event. I also strongly disagree that it should be ok for people to use the trailer as a source of information whether it's a novice or not. In reality,it's usually not novices who are guilty of this. Distractions are the major cause for T&S errors even more so than simple human error and every effort should be made to minimize them rather than encouraging them by inviting people to come to the trailer for whatever question they may have. We had a sign on the bus stating that no one was to enter - maybe we need a sign in front of the trailer. The Supps are also pretty clear on this as well under the "Interfering with Workers" paragraph. Of course I also know very few people read them but that's no excuse either.

    If that sounds a little harsh or old school so be it. There's a reason the policy is enforced at most motorsport events and every autox I've attended regardless of location.

     

    flyguy
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    11 May 2016 09:54 AM
    To be clear,I'm not advocating DSQing people for approaching the trailer but do not think the trailer should become designated information central. I personally don't think there's been a problem with people being unable to find answers to their questions. We usually tell people at the driver's meeting to find one of the people introduced there or anyone with a radio. There are probably options available that could include the announcer (who should not be in the trailer),event chair or chief steward (a position that's kinda fallen by the wayside but shouldn't). If you have a suggestion,forward it to the SAC or,better yet,considering applying for a position on the SAC - there will be at least three openings at the end of the season.
    Autolex
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    11 May 2016 10:01 AM
    Posted By flyguy on 10 May 2016 07:47 PM

    There's a reason the policy is enforced at most motorsport events and every autox I've attended regardless of location.

     

    Mike, 

    Are we / do we re-iterate this at the drivers meeting? 

    I can understand what Chris Z was saying about the trailer being a defacto go-to for questions/other aid since that's where we hold the drivers meeting. Maybe there's some thing we can do to defer this unintentional attention?

    Completely agree with Chris H, focus on T&S without distractions of other un-necessary people would make things easier. (this was probably much easier with the bus and limited egress/ingress)

    Mike answered most of this before i could hit "submit".


    rkammerer
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    11 May 2016 09:09 PM

    Jason,

          So, I sat down this evening to dig through the Course Log / Master Log / Computer Log / Results spreadsheets, so I could tell you exactly which corners called in the cones on your runs.  I didn't see any cones in the written logs for your last run.  I did see some un-reported cones on the car following you.  Reviewing the computer, it appears that some good-for-nothing keyboard monkey clicked the wrong row when adding the two cones.  So, I apologize for that.  I'll (as T&S Chief) verbally berate and dock the pay of myself (as Audit).

          Corrected results are up on the website.  Class, Class YTD, PAX, PAX YTD, Ladies, and Ladies YTD are corrected.

          Thanks for speaking up on this, and sorry for the drama.

    Clint_G
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    11 May 2016 09:34 PM
    I've run timing with CCSCC pretty consistently for the last few years with axware. Pretty sure that's the same you guys are running...anyway, they use a second computer with axware (client mode of some kind) to display read-only results on it and a big screen TV, which allows people outside of T&S to scroll through runs, check results reports, etc, without having to bother timing (usually). I found out in the last year or so that the "comments" field comes through the client module and I started to record details of calls right in axware - then people could just walk up and check out where calls came from. We got a TON of really great feedback from doing this, and it decreased the number of interruptions we had in the truck, so maybe something to consider. You can do all sorts of fancy things with axware and multiple computers, I hear (but I've not been in on the setup bits, so not much help there).

    The only problem we've run into comes from only 2 people being in T&S. Normally, where a call comes from isn't logged, so adding that to the mix can be taxing at times.
    java_osborn
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    11 May 2016 10:58 PM
    Rob,
    You co above and beyond,
    Thank you.
    I think that our live feed is almost as good as the big screen, but we need to promote it more and update it routinely every 1/2 run.
    We already have the tech paid for and it will cost nothing more

    The TV is a good idea, but costly

    Great idea though,
    Jeff
    Autolex
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    12 May 2016 10:02 AM
    Posted By Clint on 11 May 2016 09:34 PM 
    I've run timing with CCSCC pretty consistently for the last few years with axware. Pretty sure that's the same you guys are running...anyway, they use a second computer with axware (client mode of some kind) to display read-only results on it and a big screen TV, which allows people outside of T&S to scroll through runs, check results reports, etc, without having to bother timing (usually). I found out in the last year or so that the "comments" field comes through the client module and I started to record details of calls right in axware - then people could just walk up and check out where calls came from. We got a TON of really great feedback from doing this, and it decreased the number of interruptions we had in the truck, so maybe something to consider. You can do all sorts of fancy things with axware and multiple computers, I hear (but I've not been in on the setup bits, so not much help there). 

    The only problem we've run into comes from only 2 people being in T&S. Normally, where a call comes from isn't logged, so adding that to the mix can be taxing at times.
    Posted By java_osborn on 11 May 2016 10:58 PM 
    Rob,
    You co above and beyond,
    Thank you.
    I think that our live feed is almost as good as the big screen, but we need to promote it more and update it routinely every 1/2 run.
    We already have the tech paid for and it will cost nothing more

    The TV is a good idea, but costly

    Great idea though,
    Jeff

    Both of these ideas together wouldn't cost all that much in the real world: cheap LCD TV and a chromecast.

     

    The question is usability and benefit.  Is this really an issue we need to address? would cheap generic Android tablets on flexy arms work better?

     

    Are we planning on doing live timing at every event? I know that previously we've not had it running at 100% of the events.

    Bama2014
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    12 May 2016 11:37 AM

    Rob,

    Thanks for letting me know and getting in fixed. I didn't see the cones on the posted results which is what triggered my question. I appreciate the honesty and no worries on the drama. 

    You are not authorized to post a reply.


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