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Last Post 11 Oct 2017 08:09 PM by  flyguy
6 of 9 or 5 of 9
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rkammerer
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06 Oct 2017 08:18 AM
Hi everyone,
I've gotten a lot of input on this, as Timing and Scoring Chief. I know a number of other SAC members have listened to members as the past few events.
Ad the last SAC meeting, we discussed this, with the goal of making a ruling and getting that decision out to members quickly, not waiting until after the end of the season.
Arguments were made in both sides, and the end the majority decided we would follow the traditional 1/2+1, round up, and clarify in the Supps that, for an odd number of events we round up.
I'll take the passionate discussion here back to the SAC, along with Mike's thought in a Fun Event in November, and see if we want to revisit this.

Dean et al, I don't have/know how to access the teamsolo account, but everyone feel free to email me directly if T&S or ViceChair can help. rkammerer@gmail.com but I take a few days often to reply, no longer can get to personal email at work

Thanks, keep the feedback coming!
RobK
rtp.rick
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06 Oct 2017 12:54 PM

I'm surprised the Supps have not said "rounded up" all along. That had been the intention when they were revamped in mid-2000's (2006-7). I'm not sure how that got missed.

My opinion is we should score the best 6 of the 9 events being run. I have no dog in the fight, I won't have enough events for anything (either way).

H's & K's,
Rick Ruth

christoc
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06 Oct 2017 02:07 PM
5
jlncc1702e
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06 Oct 2017 02:25 PM

As Grid Chief I have heard from many members over the last several events. I have heard it should be 5, I have heard it should be 6, I have even heard "it should be the total of all events." 

No matter what the decision was; someone was going to be disenfranchised. I can see all sides of the argument and all sides have valid points, even that "it should be all events."

However, the decision has been made via a majority vote. I will remind everyone that it is their right to appeal that decision to the Regional Board of Directors. The Regional BOD Meeting is Monday the 9th at Frederick's Restaurant at the corner of Saint Charles Rock Road and I-270 in Bridgeton.

If you want to appeal to the Region but cannot make the meeting; you may send your appeal to me at jlncc1702e@gmail.com and I will present it to the Region and abstain from any vote that may result. I will consider your request confidential until such time as it is presented to the Region at which time it will become a matter of public record.

Jim Lynch Jr

SAC Member

Member of the St. Louis Region SCCA Board of Directors

jlncc1702e
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06 Oct 2017 02:27 PM

PS: The board meets at 6:30PM, please arrive by 6:00 if you want to order food.

jlncc1702e
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06 Oct 2017 02:27 PM

 

gilligan156
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06 Oct 2017 03:26 PM
Thanks Jim!
EPidiot1
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06 Oct 2017 05:34 PM
Dean this is Jim Lynch III, I'm not angry at your car or your skill. I'm simply stating the facts that you have the skills and the tools to take the STR championship anytime you want and a top 20 spot. That is a Luxury that not everyone out here has. Now I understand scheduling and family keep some of us from making every event. But don't come out here calling it unfair because the SAC didn't decide in favor of your schedule. There are plenty of us who have made every event up to this point this season who need every single opportunity we can get. So to take a points away from us that would be unfair. To be honest Dean the request coming from you looks a little on the fishy side. Considering that you don't have 5 completed up to this point but conveniently event 9 and 10 will give you 5 total. Not saying there is or isn't any alternative motives but take a step back and look at how that looks from a different perspective. Sorry your gamble on the schedule did not work this year. The positive thing here it sounds like your were spending the time with a new grand child. There is next year.

Sean again I offered my STS Miata to you. The offer is still there if you wanna give it a shot to still win the class. I'm sure you can get much more time out of it than I can which should give you the needed points. Besides taking third in the class due to cancelation isn't exactly my cup of tea.
sgreer78
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06 Oct 2017 05:38 PM

Thanks, I kind of forgot about that in all the chaos lately with my cars/life/sleep/lack of sleep etc. Shoot me an email sometime before the next event. s greer 78 at g mail

 

In Dean's defense he has been concerned about this since the cancellation was announced and as he stated has tried numerous times to contact the SAC regarding it. The motives are clear; spend tons of money on car prep, entry fees, and time for a stupid trophy, you want that stupid trophy for something to show for what you've done. 

EPidiot1
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Posts:41


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06 Oct 2017 06:26 PM
Cool I shoot you an email. I do agree that the rules are a little shaky on this scenario. You forgot to highlight lack of sleep.
96SM2
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Posts:1245


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06 Oct 2017 06:32 PM

I agree with Rick, I seem to remember this used to be in the Supps about situations like this and was surprised to see it was removed. Since I do not have any trophies at risk in this situation, the following is just how I view this.
.Even with out the language, to me it would have been 6 out of 9 just on the way I learned rounding back in school. I know, I am an old guy and rules of math have probably changed but .5 rounded up to the next full digit so 5 +1 for 6. For me, the anomaly is the rescheduled date in this discussion. But even with that, the schedule is always subject to change since we don't own the sites. This puts the SAC in the situation we have now. They made the decision that 6 out of 9 was how Championships would be decided, and I would have voted that way if I were in their places. I understand both sides and as usual in things like this, you can't please everyone.
drhodes
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Posts:189


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08 Oct 2017 07:19 AM
Posted By EPidiot1 on 06 Oct 2017 05:34 PM
Dean this is Jim Lynch III, I'm not angry at your car or your skill. I'm simply stating the facts that you have the skills and the tools to take the STR championship anytime you want and a top 20 spot. That is a Luxury that not everyone out here has. Now I understand scheduling and family keep some of us from making every event. But don't come out here calling it unfair because the SAC didn't decide in favor of your schedule. There are plenty of us who have made every event up to this point this season who need every single opportunity we can get. So to take a points away from us that would be unfair. To be honest Dean the request coming from you looks a little on the fishy side. Considering that you don't have 5 completed up to this point but conveniently event 9 and 10 will give you 5 total. Not saying there is or isn't any alternative motives but take a step back and look at how that looks from a different perspective. Sorry your gamble on the schedule did not work this year. The positive thing here it sounds like your were spending the time with a new grand child. There is next year.

Sean again I offered my STS Miata to you. The offer is still there if you wanna give it a shot to still win the class. I'm sure you can get much more time out of it than I can which should give you the needed points. Besides taking third in the class due to cancelation isn't exactly my cup of tea.

Careful about throwing stones Jim Lynch the Third. It sure does look like you are arguing in your best interest here. Of course I am arguing in my best interest. I posted my email that I wrote to the SAC with the fact stated that I will only be able to make 5 events this year. Like Sean stated I was on the SAC for the last 4 years and was chief of course for those years as well. I care about this club and speak out when I feel the club has made a decision that could drive members away. To me this is one of those decisions. 

drhodes
Basic Member
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Posts:189


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08 Oct 2017 08:36 AM
SAC,

I would like to request that in the event of a event cancellation that all members be awarded 10000 points for that event.

This is what the SAC did for event 5 in 2012. Course broke up and had to be moved in middle of event.

Thanks,

Dean Rhodes



email sent to SAC
flyguy
Advanced Member
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Posts:523


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09 Oct 2017 08:28 AM

Posted By drhodes on 08 Oct 2017 08:36 AM
SAC,

I would like to request that in the event of a event cancellation that all members be awarded 10000 points for that event.

This is what the SAC did for event 5 in 2012. Course broke up and had to be moved in middle of event.

Thanks,

Dean Rhodes
I think this is an excellent compromise and should address everyone's concerns. This situation was beyond our control.


email sent to SAC

96SM2
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09 Oct 2017 10:07 AM
This situation is just hitting me wrong guys. The event where the course broke up is completely different in my opinion than a cancelled event. At the course break up event, people had runs in and it was viable way to salvage an event where people had invested time. The schedule page says dates are subject to change, and cancellation is a change imo, so if you are making plans to make the minimum number of events there is a possibility, slim though it may be, that your plan may fail. It sucks that it can cost someone a trophy position, been there/ done that, but the person made a personal decision and it did not work out the way they had hoped.
sgreer78
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09 Oct 2017 12:57 PM
I don't agree with the course break-up event analogy either, but again and again I think a cancelled, non-rescheduled event should results in one less counted event.

Doesn't matter, the SAC have appeared to dig their heels in the sand and post on FB that their call stands. At this point, who cares? Who's up for around 10 road trips next year?
flyguy
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Posts:523


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09 Oct 2017 01:35 PM
I think the 10000 point suggestion Dean made offers a compromise. As I said earlier,based on recent discourse with the FA lot manager,I think a policy decision should be considered for outright cancellations that cannot be made up because it will likely happen again. I am not optimistic about dealing with FA going forward based on interaction with them over the event cancellation and the vehicle left on the lot last event. FYI their policy now is that vehicles left on the lot are our problem and it's up to us to arrange and pay for a tow. To be honest,if it were solely up to me we would never go back there. But I'm starting on next year's schedule already but will weight it toward Gateway if possible to try and minimize schedule disruption. And,yes,there is no guarantee at Gateway but they are more reliable and much easier to work with. They are also cheaper,especially when you consider not needing porta-potties - and no lot cleaning fees.
47CP
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09 Oct 2017 01:51 PM

Curiously, I just looked at the FS points and figured out this issue effects me.   Expect me to bus in some protesters from DC and block Highway 64....:)

I also think this issue has happened to me before.  IN that case, it was when I borrowed Marcus's ESP car long term, which ended up being the tail end of one season and the first half of the next.   Won index at almost every local event, fastest in ESP, didn't have enough events to win overall index or the class in either year.

Overall, it is what it is.  If I were on the SAC, I would have leaned more towards 5 of 9 but I don't think 6 is the end of the world.  Like Rick and Andy, I also seem to remember rounding being covered in the supps in the past.

Here it is from 2008, the last year I have saved on my system....the same as now.


In order to be considered for season end standings, an entrant needs valid
results for that championship in ½ plus one of the total amount of series events held.
EDIT:  Looks like it got broken around 2005-2007 timeframe.  I don't have supps for 05 and 06, but 2000-2004 refers to the following about class championship and doesn't specifically mention driver's/index championship:

In order to be considered for season end points for a particular class, an entrant needs to participate in greater than 50% of 
total season events in that class (rounded up to the nearest whole number). Total class points for an entrant shall be 
calculated from the highest scoring 75% of total season events (rounded up to the nearest whole number).

My stash of old useless digital still stuff picks up again in 07 and that has the current wording with no reference to rounding up.  It probably got dropped when we switched to the 10000 point systems by accident.

Anyway, I am not terribly worked up over this.   Autocross in general is much more about how you perform on a given day against given competition.   If you have run long enough, you will realize that there were some really easy trophies and some really hard ones.   If someone else feels better about getting an award for just showing up and not actually beating someone head to head, who I am I to complain....let them have their glory.  Those of us with a few years under our belts all remember certain people moving to AML every year and parading the championship jacket around....

DaveW

flyguy
Advanced Member
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Posts:523


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09 Oct 2017 03:49 PM
The link to the Supps version on the website looks to me like the 1/2 plus one is still there in para. 10.8? But,rules are made to be waived if deemed appropriate or necessary. Like Dave,I don't feel strongly one way or the other and would have leaned toward 5 of 9. That said,I respect and support the SAC's decision if anyone asks. Like many SAC decisions it's a no win situation. Been there done that got lots of t-shirts.
The Nebulizer
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09 Oct 2017 05:39 PM
Posted By flyguy on 09 Oct 2017 01:35 PM
I think the 10000 point suggestion Dean made offers a compromise. 

 

That's only an apparent compromise. It is mathematically identical to going with 5 instead of 6 events of 9. 

I lean more toward sticking with 6, but really don't care too much either way. (If it is 6 maybe Dave will borrow an FS car and give me one more shot to take him down.) I'd actually prefer if we went with only 1 drop (8 of 9) for the season in the future. I like the pressure it puts on you to be consistently good and present. I've played on that system for the last 10 years in Indy and you know going in that if you plan to miss 1 event, you are pushing your luck.

As for Family Arena, I have very little experience with family arena, but I certainly enjoy the variety so I hope we can keep putting up with their BS.

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