AspireTec Engineering  468
PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 26 Sep 2011 11:32 AM by  solo-x
BSP may rise from the dead
 523 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 2 of 27 << < 12345 > >>
Author Messages
veloscaraptor
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
20 May 2010 05:20 PM
Mhyrr wrote:
NJGT3 wrote:

The one thing I'm not so sure is the sudden expected growth in BSP if the Evo is moved to ASP.

I think this is based off the long list of cars sitting right now in the Evo's shadow. C4 Corvette, E36 M3, E46 M3, M Coupe, 135, S2000, Boxster/Cayman, Solstice GXP, 350Z. That's a big list of interesting cars.

Don't forget all of the Porsches and the MR2 that are (proposed to be) moving from ASP to BSP

snaponbob
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:2862


--
20 May 2010 07:54 PM
OasisTan wrote:

Joe Silva ran Bob Buxbaums very underprepped Saturn Sky at Forbes Field. He said he would definitely have been faster in the Sky than my Evo for that given course just a couple weeks ago. Also, the 135i can obtain 400+HP/TQ and could be a BSP monster as well. Problem is, only a few guys are developing them. So, those who want to move the Evo, how do you know its quicker unless you buk the fuk up and prep your car and show up to National Events? Quit bench racing and show up for a change? I know for a fact a FULLY prepped Solstice/Sky would be competitive with the Evo on a solo course. I am sure the 135i would be as well as a few others on the list.

To be honest, I am awfully tired of debating given cars are overdogs in given classes only to have MY car moved or proposed to be moved to another class after I have fully prepped my cars nearly every single year since I began autocrossing with the exception of my first season.

So, anyone want to buy a fully prepped BSP Evo? Today? 22K miles and in excellent condition, never been wrecked, SE trim package about $45-50K invested(after purchasing in virgin form for $26800 last season before the build). I'll take $34K for it if so, and, I am going to find another hobby where I don't have to spend $30-35k if I want a newer competitive prepped car every season. OK, OK, so, maybe I will still autocross, but, this pisses me off bigtime.

Why let member fully prep cars for 2-3 years only to make them uncompetitive because someone THINKS that the other cars, that they don't have the Nuttsak to prep, won't be competitive? It just doesn't make sense to me.

Under prepared my ass. Under driven by me, absolutely. IIRC, Joe was running with Frank in his S/S Z06, and yes more seat time could help, but with respect to Joe - he (or you) should prepare a Kappa and see how under prepared my car is, or is not. There is nothing else that can legally be done to my car. A $5K set of shocks will not make it a car that can beat an Evo on a National course. That said ---

I think that A/Sp should be split with the creation of SS/SP. THEN, all the real heavy hitters can play in SS/SP, a bunch of current A/SP cars that are not running could come out to play, and THEN the Evos would have a correct "home". I read the proposal, and to be fair, B/SP is actually GROWING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

By the way, if your assertion is that one must have a "nuttsak" to prepare a car, and that the "nuttsak" is full of money, and that money is what is needed to have a well prepared car, then why are you crying about the cost of prep. That said, there are a lot of choices for an Evo (read that as CLASS choices) that some of us don't have, so if A/SP is not good for you there is SM and ST. Or is there a "nuttsak" issue with going to those classes? As for the "bench racers" deciding what cars go to what classes, it was those bench racers that put the Evos in B/SP and that seemed to be okay then!!! I still think they are proposing the wrong solution because it probably will NOT add to either class. Making a place for MORE different cars to run makes more sense but the SAC states they don't want "class proliferation" while trying to add classes. Since that conflict of logic can't seem to be sorted out, some will (potentially) get screwed whiles others (may) benefit.

snaponbob
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:2862


--
20 May 2010 07:57 PM
OasisTan wrote:
Mhyrr wrote:
NJGT3 wrote:

The one thing I'm not so sure is the sudden expected growth in BSP if the Evo is moved to ASP.

I think this is based off the long list of cars sitting right now in the Evo's shadow. C4 Corvette, E36 M3, E46 M3, M Coupe, 135, S2000, Boxster/Cayman, Solstice GXP, 350Z. That's a big list of interesting cars.

How many have seriously been prepped and driven by National Championship caliber drivers? Who is to say some of them wouldn't be competitive right now? There are some on the list(Solstice for sure) that I know for a fact are 100% capable with the correct driver/build

Just to help with the Solstice assertion, on a good race tune on 100 octane gas, it is maxxed out at no more than 300whp and a fairly narrow power band because the HP peak is at 5400 rpm. E85 will not help as there are no aftermarket injectors to allow sufficient fuel flow.

snaponbob
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:2862


--
20 May 2010 08:00 PM
Being somewhat more objective, if I had a built up Evo I would be p.o.'ed as well.
OasisTan
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1355


--
20 May 2010 08:24 PM
snaponbob wrote:
Under prepared my ass.

Bob

Got a rear diff? Got a clutch and lightweight flywheel? Intercooler? Lightweight 2 piece brakes? Sure, you would have to have some of this stuff custom made and it would cost some bucks, but, could be done under the rules which I have done to mine. Titanium exhaust? Titanium Downpipe? Ported exhaust mani? Ported intake mani? Ported throttle body? Boost pumped up a bit? lightweight racing seats, especially a very small passenger seat weighing almost nothing bolted to the floor? Lightweight aluminum bodied coilovers? I am sure injectors could be had somewhere surely, if not, lobby to have some made(or, maybe you couldn't). I do know when I was running Mini's, there was a company buying OEM injectors and altering them for higher flow. Maybe it could be an option, maybe not.....

I don't know, maybe you do have all of the above done, I am just guessing, but, I was thinking you were lacking a number of usable mods. If your car is even close to prepped to the max with rear LSD and a number of important mods listed above, I would be more than happy to swap cars with you and run for 10 events as a good test if you would like..... Heck, I will even run your car at nats as a good test and you can run my Evo. Seriously.

Craig

OasisTan
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1355


--
20 May 2010 08:28 PM

snaponbob wrote:
Being somewhat more objective, if I had a built up Evo I would be p.o.'ed as well.

Bob,

I am glad you sympathize! ;-)

Craig

talon95
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1924


--
21 May 2010 03:40 AM
OasisTan wrote:

Joe Silva ran Bob Buxbaums very underprepped Saturn Sky at Forbes Field. He said he would definitely have been faster in the Sky than my Evo for that given course just a couple weeks ago. Also, the 135i can obtain 400+HP/TQ and could be a BSP monster as well. Problem is, only a few guys are developing them. So, those who want to move the Evo, how do you know its quicker unless you buk the fuk up and prep your car and show up to National Events? Quit bench racing and show up for a change? I know for a fact a FULLY prepped Solstice/Sky would be competitive with the Evo on a solo course. I am sure the 135i would be as well as a few others on the list.

To be honest, I am awfully tired of debating given cars are overdogs in given classes only to have MY car moved or proposed to be moved to another class after I have fully prepped my cars nearly every single year since I began autocrossing with the exception of my first season.

So, anyone want to buy a fully prepped BSP Evo? Today? 22K miles and in excellent condition, never been wrecked, SE trim package about $45-50K invested(after purchasing in virgin form for $26800 last season before the build). I'll take $34K for it if so, and, I am going to find another hobby where I don't have to spend $30-35k if I want a newer competitive prepped car every season. OK, OK, so, maybe I will still autocross, but, this pisses me off bigtime.

Why let member fully prep cars for 2-3 years only to make them uncompetitive because someone THINKS that the other cars, that they don't have the Nuttsak to prep, won't be competitive? It just doesn't make sense to me.

You know, you've probably hit the real issue here (which isn't easily fixable). It just simply costs too much money to prep for these classes. I suspect we'll never see a lot of growth as long as costs are so high. Moving the Evo likely won't change that. Certainly won't if we move a bunch of $$$$ Porsche's down from ASP (assuming any of them are competitive, I don't really know).

Dave G.

snaponbob
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:2862


--
21 May 2010 04:22 AM
Bob

Got a rear diff? No need. The existing one works fine.

Got a clutch and lightweight flywheel? Not yet. No need. It is on the list, but the current one holds fine. Would save 25 pounds and help power delivery a small bit.

Intercooler? ADDS weight and dynos have shown benefit (except MAYBE after three runs due to heat).

Lightweight 2 piece brakes? None available. Bigger, yes - lighter no. Plenty of stopping power with better pads. Did it last month.

Sure, you would have to have some of this stuff custom made and it would cost some bucks, but, could be done under the rules which I have done to mine. Titanium exhaust? Titanium Downpipe? A grand to save 5 - 10 pounds?

Ported exhaust mani? It's been tried with no benefit. Ported intake mani? Ditto. Ported throttle body? Ditto.

Boost pumped up a bit? Plenty of pressure available.

Lightweight racing seats, especially a very small passenger seat weighing almost nothing bolted to the floor? Done the math and the savings would be about 30-40 pounds.

I am sure injectors could be had somewhere surely, the YOU find them - if not, lobby to have some made(or, maybe you couldn't). Not enough market potential. Kappas, Cobalts, and HHR SS's with this engine was a surprisingly small number, and all models are discontinued.

I do know when I was running Mini's, there was a company buying OEM injectors and altering them for higher flow. Maybe it could be an option, maybe not..... MUCH bigger WORLDWIDE market, and and they are still being built.

I don't know, maybe you do have all of the above done, I am just guessing, but, I was thinking you were lacking a number of usable mods. If your car is even close to prepped to the max with rear LSD and a number of important mods listed above, I would be more than happy to swap cars with you and run for 10 events as a good test if you would like..... Heck, I will even run your car at nats as a good test and you can run my Evo. Seriously. You want to throw some money at my car and run it at Nats? Here's your invitation. I have no interest in driving your car. I'll install whatever you supply. MTBSW.

As it stands, if I stripped the A/C out and did all the other weight savings tweaks I could I would have a 2900 pound car instead of a 3000 pound car. No amount of money or fairy is going to fix the small turbo, stupid gear ratios, and limited power band. Alex drove his GXP beautifully and there may be a bit more potential in his car, but September will tell on that. The MAJOR problem with MY car is MY driver !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Craig


Jephro
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
21 May 2010 10:29 AM

^^^ I dont mean to stir up the debate, but a lot of those things that you havent done can completely transform a car. Lightening up the clutch/flywheel/brakes gives you a lot more than the raw weight number since it is rotational mass. Putting in a higher geared dif will make that narrow powerband seem a little more useful. Getting those $5000 shocks will get you a lot more adjustment and control of the car. And even if the parts are not currently available, if you were able to put E85 in the car you would be adding another bit of HP to the car and you are not limited to that 300whp number. The classing is supposed to be based on what could be done, not what is currently available to be done. Otherwise every time a new part came out for a car you might have to reclass it. If dont have a set of light 3 piece wheels which adds to the reduction in rotational mass that is another $$ that makes a difference...

Basically, if you havent done all the weight savings and power mods, then the car isnt nearly as close to "fully prepped" as you are implying and isnt a fair comparison to those few Evos that have done everything allowed in the rules. A car like Craigs or Berry's cant be compared to most, those have every single thing to get those extra pounds and extra HP and shave every pound. Unless you are comparing them to a Solstice with equal prep, they are apples vs oranges. The point of classing is to put cars that ARE prepped to the max on equal grounds with each other, not put cars that are on a budget on equal ground to ones that have gobs of $$$ put into them. If someone did put the same $30k into a solstice, I think it could be up there with the Evo's.

That all being said, I have no stake in this. I am with the other people who are angry that a car is being moved just because no one has put the same amount of time/$$ into other cars in the class.

OasisTan
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1355


--
21 May 2010 10:32 AM
snaponbob wrote:
Bob

Got a rear diff? No need. The existing one works fine.

Got a clutch and lightweight flywheel? Not yet. No need. It is on the list, but the current one holds fine. Would save 25 pounds and help power delivery a small bit.

Intercooler? ADDS weight and dynos have shown benefit (except MAYBE after three runs due to heat).

Lightweight 2 piece brakes? None available. Bigger, yes - lighter no. Plenty of stopping power with better pads. Did it last month.

Sure, you would have to have some of this stuff custom made and it would cost some bucks, but, could be done under the rules which I have done to mine. Titanium exhaust? Titanium Downpipe? A grand to save 5 - 10 pounds?

Ported exhaust mani? It's been tried with no benefit. Ported intake mani? Ditto. Ported throttle body? Ditto.

Boost pumped up a bit? Plenty of pressure available.

Lightweight racing seats, especially a very small passenger seat weighing almost nothing bolted to the floor? Done the math and the savings would be about 30-40 pounds.

I am sure injectors could be had somewhere surely, the YOU find them - if not, lobby to have some made(or, maybe you couldn't). Not enough market potential. Kappas, Cobalts, and HHR SS's with this engine was a surprisingly small number, and all models are discontinued.

I do know when I was running Mini's, there was a company buying OEM injectors and altering them for higher flow. Maybe it could be an option, maybe not..... MUCH bigger WORLDWIDE market, and and they are still being built.

I don't know, maybe you do have all of the above done, I am just guessing, but, I was thinking you were lacking a number of usable mods. If your car is even close to prepped to the max with rear LSD and a number of important mods listed above, I would be more than happy to swap cars with you and run for 10 events as a good test if you would like..... Heck, I will even run your car at nats as a good test and you can run my Evo. Seriously. You want to throw some money at my car and run it at Nats? Here's your invitation. I have no interest in driving your car. I'll install whatever you supply. MTBSW.

As it stands, if I stripped the A/C out and did all the other weight savings tweaks I could I would have a 2900 pound car instead of a 3000 pound car. No amount of money or fairy is going to fix the small turbo, stupid gear ratios, and limited power band. Alex drove his GXP beautifully and there may be a bit more potential in his car, but September will tell on that. The MAJOR problem with MY car is MY driver !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Craig

Bob,

Thanks for the lengthy reply.

Oh, I forgot, Intercooler piping?

Looking at the list, your car isn't prepped even close to the max. It appears you have camber, wider wheels and tires and higher boost. Thats not even close Bob. Have some 2 piece lightweight rotors custom machined. Get that flywheel/clutch in there. I think you are underestimating the worth of a quality rear diff. Your car has very LITTLE prep and its potentially faster than my Evo on some courses. I don't have another 10K to finish your Sky, its all tied up in my BSP Evo. ;-) Who knows, maybe next season I will take you up on your offer if its still there. I suspect though, I will buy myself a $12K GXP solstice and put 10K into it and run BSP. Either that or a stock class Mini Cooper 2 seater coupe that will be coming out in October. ;-)


solo-x
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1244


--
21 May 2010 11:15 AM
Forgive me, but I'm struggling to see how a 2wd car with less hp, less then ideal gear ratios (no, you can't change the FD unless there is an option I'm not aware of for this car through UD/BD) and no appreciable weight difference is as fast/faster then the EVO. Should we be moving the Solstice/Sky too?
Jephro
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
21 May 2010 11:48 AM

solo-x wrote:
Forgive me, but I'm struggling to see how a 2wd car with less hp, less then ideal gear ratios (no, you can't change the FD unless there is an option I'm not aware of for this car through UD/BD) and no appreciable weight difference is as fast/faster then the EVO. Should we be moving the Solstice/Sky too?

Sometimes raw numbers arent the only thing that makes a car fast. What makes the S2000 and GXP a better BS car than the Evo or STI? The GXP and s2000 may have a slight weight advantage, but both have lower HP and have no tire advantage over the rally cars. Yet the rally cars are not competitive in BS with the S2000 and GXP which on paper are arguably less capable cars.

In SP, I dont disagree that the Evo should stand alone at the top. However, I dont think we should be moving cars out as a solution. I would rather see other cars moved into the class to try to even it out instead of just removing it. At some point the SP classes need to be updated. Every time a newer faster car comes along we shouldnt just be getting rid of it. Sticking with that mentality means that only ASP will ever update, and that is only because there is no where else to dump the "fastest of the fast" cars. Eventually we are going to have to give up on keeping cars dominant in classes for decades at a time. Stock classes (for the most part) are continuously updated in order to allow the newer cars to be competitive, why should SP classes be any different?

Mhyrr
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:271


--
21 May 2010 12:49 PM

Are we assuming the Evo will be uncompetitive in ASP? Instead of doing all this switcheroo work for one car that's clearly faster than the rest of BSP, why not move it? There's already a ton of cars sitting in BSP that would be great for the class. Occasional appearances or afternoon runs at local autocrosses don't count as "FACT" for a measure of competitiveness.

The Evo will absolutely be competitive in ASP. It won't be an overdog, it will readily be in the mix.

01 FS Z28
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1160


--
21 May 2010 01:19 PM
RichJones wrote:
NJGT3 wrote:

I don't know much or anything for that matter about the Evo, but I have heard the rumors that on E85 these cars are running North of 400whp.

I don't think the Evo is an ASP car, but one of my assumptions is that they are running 360whp, and the power-to-weight ratio is comparable to other cars in BSP (S2000, Boxster, Cayman, etc). However, at 400+ whp and under 3,000 lbs, they look better on paper than a 996/997 GT3 (360-380 whp) and they benefit from AWD. At 420whp, the Evo should do well in ASP.

Your first assumption was correct. In BSP trim, an Evo IX makes 360-370whp on a Mustang Dyno. There's no way an Evo is at 400whp on stock turbo and is BSP legal (on a Mustang Dyno, at least)

Hmm, my Camaro (LS1 car) in SP trim made 321 RWHP on a Mustang dyno. 360-370 is strong, and on a Dynojet (more widely used) that number would be 400-ish as my car @ 321 on a Mustang dyno put down 360 on a Dynojet.

RichJones
New Member
New Member
Posts:13


--
21 May 2010 01:27 PM
You're right, it's probably north of 400 on a DJ, but since everyone around here (SF, CA) uses a MD, I forget about them
OasisTan
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1355


--
21 May 2010 01:47 PM

solo-x wrote:
Forgive me, but I'm struggling to see how a 2wd car with less hp, less then ideal gear ratios (no, you can't change the FD unless there is an option I'm not aware of for this car through UD/BD) and no appreciable weight difference is as fast/faster then the EVO. Should we be moving the Solstice/Sky too?

Nate

It corners better, has more rubber, fits 18x11 wheels, is definitely a bit lighter..... Enough with the bench racing since it means very little, lets do some real tests on course.

Craig

OasisTan
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1355


--
21 May 2010 01:50 PM
Mhyrr wrote:

Are we assuming the Evo will be uncompetitive in ASP? Instead of doing all this switcheroo work for one car that's clearly faster than the rest of BSP, why not move it? There's already a ton of cars sitting in BSP that would be great for the class. Occasional appearances or afternoon runs at local autocrosses don't count as "FACT" for a measure of competitiveness.

The Evo will absolutely be competitive in ASP. It won't be an overdog, it will readily be in the mix.

Just because some SPECULATE that the other cars in class won't be as fast as the Evo doesn't mean that its fact either.

The only way to tell is to prep the cars that have shown potential and put equal caliber drivers in both cars with tons of seat time and run some tests.

I am willing to donate my Evo for the test, who has a 95% prepped Solstice that is willing? I am talking a true 95%, not one that hasn't done 20% of the prep because each mod doesn't help much. All proper mods add up and shave off time. I know its VERY expensive to 95% prep a car, but, we need to compare apples to apples. Anyway, we can set up a variety of courses and test for a couple days. I have the tires for my car and will donate them. Anyone? I will set up a lot rental as well.

AUTOwrXER
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
21 May 2010 03:55 PM
Mhyrr wrote:

The Evo will absolutely be competitive in ASP. It won't be an overdog, it will readily be in the mix.

Greg,

BSP was 1.7 seconds off ASP this year, and I'm certain that given the budget the top drivers in ASP wouldn't be choosing Corvettes. With this proposed move Evos aren't going to ASP; they are going to SM. It just makes more sense, and with two reclassifications in five years, who could blame them for bailing on SP? In fact, what incentive is there to build a SP car anymore when this is the precedent set for success? This proposal will result in a net decrease in SP competition, and then the problem will be magnified when the STi is moved the following year.

BMoore
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:147


--
21 May 2010 11:51 PM
Jephro wrote:

That all being said, I have no stake in this. I am with the other people who are angry that a car is being moved just because no one has put the same amount of time/$$ into other cars in the class.

Pardon?

There have been plenty of cars that have put this kind of time and money into development. Look at the historical numbers, BSP USED to be a large class, then the cars in that class got the crap kicked out of them by the Evo's. There are a bunch of M3's and Corvettes that are fully prepped and ready to go (I drive one and went to national's last year), but many of the drivers don't want to go because of the Evo's. On a perfect day, on a perfect run, some of the cars MAY be close but the fact of the matter is that they aren't and haven't been. Evo's have been dominating this class since they were put into it, doesn't that say something?

Lets assume that the Mitsus are putting down 370 whp. If that's correct, and the rumors are true that they're sub 3000 lbs, then that means that my fully prepped to-the-max vette weighing in at 3200# and only putting 340 to 350 to the 2 DRIVE WHEELS is already at a tremendous disadvantage. I have the $5k shocks, the 5 extra cubic inches from a rebuild, the removed AC and stereo, everything (except the "lightweight" 2 piece rotors that will save me a total of 8 pounds, a healthy diet would save me 30 - 40). There isn't a thing more that I can do to the car, yet I'm not competitive in any class with a formerly class winning car. Corvettes used to be a great car for the class and then M3's were right there with them. I think a well prepped Porsche could more than keep up with them as well. Why should there be a dominant car in the class keeping all of these otherwise competitive cars from playing? I, for one, would love to see them go so I can justify going to Nationals. I had a great time last year, but I don't want to go if I'm going to lose by 2 seconds on a course I "should" be competitive on.

BMoore
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:147


--
21 May 2010 11:55 PM
AUTOwrXER wrote:
Mhyrr wrote:

The Evo will absolutely be competitive in ASP. It won't be an overdog, it will readily be in the mix.

Greg,

BSP was 1.7 seconds off ASP this year, and I'm certain that given the budget the top drivers in ASP wouldn't be choosing Corvettes.

No, they wouldn't be. The guys with those kind of budgets are road racing. I think it's unlikely that we will ever see a well prepped, to the max exotic. Corvettes may not be the best car to have, but they're the most affordable and will continue to have great numbers.

You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 2 of 27 << < 12345 > >>


Vorshlag 88x31 Button Leroy Engineering Micro Button
Sunoco 88x31 Button
Woodhouse Motorsports SPS 88x31 Button
G-Loc Button

Advertise on SCCAForums.com and reach thousands of visitors per day!

SafeRacer FREE SHIPPING over $99

Shop for Pirelli tires at Tire Rack. blank



Sunoco Bottom 468x60 Banner