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Last Post 26 Sep 2011 11:32 AM by  solo-x
BSP may rise from the dead
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snaponbob
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22 May 2010 07:21 AM
Jephro wrote:

^^^ I dont mean to stir up the debate, but a lot of those things that you havent done can completely transform a car. Lightening up the clutch/flywheel/brakes gives you a lot more than the raw weight number since it is rotational mass. Putting in a higher geared dif will make that narrow powerband seem a little more useful. Getting those $5000 shocks will get you a lot more adjustment and control of the car. And even if the parts are not currently available, if you were able to put E85 in the car you would be adding another bit of HP to the car and you are not limited to that 300whp number. The classing is supposed to be based on what could be done, not what is currently available to be done. Otherwise every time a new part came out for a car you might have to reclass it. If dont have a set of light 3 piece wheels which adds to the reduction in rotational mass that is another $$ that makes a difference...

Basically, if you havent done all the weight savings and power mods, then the car isnt nearly as close to "fully prepped" as you are implying and isnt a fair comparison to those few Evos that have done everything allowed in the rules. A car like Craigs or Berry's cant be compared to most, those have every single thing to get those extra pounds and extra HP and shave every pound. Unless you are comparing them to a Solstice with equal prep, they are apples vs oranges. The point of classing is to put cars that ARE prepped to the max on equal grounds with each other, not put cars that are on a budget on equal ground to ones that have gobs of $$$ put into them. If someone did put the same $30k into a solstice, I think it could be up there with the Evo's.

That all being said, I have no stake in this. I am with the other people who are angry that a car is being moved just because no one has put the same amount of time/$$ into other cars in the class.

Having shaved flywheels in past, I am aware of the benefits. It is in the works, but 11" wheels came first. As for the rest, there is such a limited market for goodies for this car that no reasonable businessman will ramp up to sell true performance stuff with no real expectation of R.O.I. There are other disks available, but they are not lighter. Ditto calipers. As for E85, GM specifically states that the LNF package can not run on E85. There are NO bigger injectors for this engine.NONE. The Evo provides a vast market for suppliers, and thus their owners have a vast menu to choose from. ANYBODY (and this is not a swipe at Craig) that dumps mega bucks in a car and then complains of the cost of prep is talking out of both sides of their mouths. This is the age old red herring about the cost of racing. Once I have done a Kirkey seat, tiny battery, and flywhel/clucth package I will cut another 50-75 pounds. Beyond that, it's a driver issue. I was clobbered by Alex because of a) his level of prep, and b) more importantly his driving. The former is easier to resolve.

snaponbob
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22 May 2010 07:53 AM

OasisTan wrote:

Bob,

Thanks for the lengthy reply.

Oh, I forgot, Intercooler piping?

Looking at the list, your car isn't prepped even close to the max. It appears you have camber, wider wheels and tires and higher boost. Thats not even close Bob. Have some 2 piece lightweight rotors custom machined. Get that flywheel/clutch in there. I think you are underestimating the worth of a quality rear diff. Your car has very LITTLE prep and its potentially faster than my Evo on some courses. I don't have another 10K to finish your Sky, its all tied up in my BSP Evo. ;-) Who knows, maybe next season I will take you up on your offer if its still there. I suspect though, I will buy myself a $12K GXP solstice and put 10K into it and run BSP. Either that or a stock class Mini Cooper 2 seater coupe that will be coming out in October. ;-)

Craig, you as well informed on Kappas as I am on Evo's. And I know damn little about how to prep an Evo. Aftermarket pipes provide NO benefit with the stock turbo.The stock intake system is very well matched to the stock turbo. It just is, and I am NOT the one that has done the work to prove that, but people that actually SPECIALIZE in building and tuning Kappas have done the work. If it was out their, I would already have installed it. If you or anybody else thinks that spending a squidzillion dollars on custom machined disks to save almost no weight is going to turn a Kappa into a direct competitor to an Evo is just not familiar enough with the Kappa. As you well know, time is king, and cones kill kings, not 15-30 pounds. It has been suggested elsewhere that a fine drive ratio change would help, but there is no legal alternate ratio I can install. The "truth" will be seen in September with the raw times that you, Tom, and Alex lay down, not me. As for the diff, the posi on a Kappa works beautifully. It really does. And, if an inside wheel unloads, it doesn't "open up" like some others do.

BTW, sorry about the potential hijack, but some of this actually goes to the whole business of class selection by the supposed bench racers (not MY term). The SEB and SPAC actually classed the LNF Kappas in A/SP because they thought it had far more potential than it does. Now, the same two groups have seen the evolution of the Evolution and are proposing a change. Don't preach the sermon of spending mega bucks when you state you won't spend more on YOUR car to compete in A/SP. You can't have it both ways. Just sayin'.

snaponbob
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22 May 2010 07:57 AM

solo-x wrote:
Forgive me, but I'm struggling to see how a 2wd car with less hp, less then ideal gear ratios (no, you can't change the FD unless there is an option I'm not aware of for this car through UD/BD) and no appreciable weight difference is as fast/faster then the EVO. Should we be moving the Solstice/Sky too?

Probably not. Seem like B/SP is about as good a fit as possible.

snaponbob
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22 May 2010 08:01 AM
OasisTan wrote:

solo-x wrote:
Forgive me, but I'm struggling to see how a 2wd car with less hp, less then ideal gear ratios (no, you can't change the FD unless there is an option I'm not aware of for this car through UD/BD) and no appreciable weight difference is as fast/faster then the EVO. Should we be moving the Solstice/Sky too?

Nate

It corners better, has more rubber, fits 18x11 wheels, is definitely a bit lighter..... Enough with the bench racing since it means very little, lets do some real tests on course.

Craig

That may happen. Tim Herron may be driving my car.

ada///M
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22 May 2010 08:25 AM

how would everybody feel things would even out if E85, or maybe fuel injectors in general were taken out of SP? Could even the field back up again, without moving any cars out. Maybe a tire-width distinction between 2wd and 4wd models a'la ST?

Just throwing out ideas here. It does seem like the EVO crowd would get screwed over by this rule when a lot of the other cars haven't been attempted at the same level. Then again, if it looks dominant enough on paper that everyone else is scarred to spend SP money to attempt to compete with it, I know I am, something should probably be done about it.

mwood
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22 May 2010 09:43 AM

After reading some of this thread, I have zero desire to leave stock class, unless I go to something like CM...custom fabbed titanium pieces to be "fully prepped"? For me, sure, I could throw $50-100,000 at a dedicated car...but, for autocrossing? Not going to happen.

I'm not taking anything away from those passionate, and talented, enough to go to those lengths, but if that's what it costs to play, I'll go back to road racing and save some money! [:|]

It seems, to me, that starting with a $1500 Miata and throwing $20-25,000 at it to run CSP is one thing, as you're still under the $30,000 threshold and people can kind of justify that in their heads (given a median income/baseline demographic kind of look at things), but when you're talking about starting with $25-50,000 cars and then an additional $20-30,000 in parts, you're into another space...one which, statistically, really narrows the pool...j

Sorry to get off topic, but reading the last couple of thoughts in this thread, about putting a little more "street" into street prepared, just hit me as logical.

talon95
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22 May 2010 11:50 AM

Yea, that's what I was alluding to earlier Mike. It may be that the upper classes in particular are just pricing themselves out of the market. I've been semi-sorta in favor of moving the Evo the last year or 2 (sorry Craig!), mainly because it does seem to be holding down a bunch of other good cars. But from reading this thread, I'm wondering just how much can be gained in participation by moving it. Are there really a lot of C4's still out there just waiting, or have those people mostly moved on?

And this is likely why ST is greatly outpacing SP in participation. Even though building an ST car is still somewhat expensive, it's still a lot cheaper than SP. The cars are still fairly streetable, IMO street tires are cheaper (yea, I know some don't agree), etc...

Dave G.

snaponbob
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22 May 2010 03:15 PM

As strange as it may seem, I do not think that the Evo should be moved for the reasons that are presented in the May Fastrack. The fact is that B/SP has been GROWING for the last few years, and that FACT is in direct contradiction to what the SPAC and SEB are saying. Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.

Earlier someone suggested banning E85 and even fuel injection in SP. Well, he got it HALF right. Ban E85 unless the car is E85 capable as delivered. As for banning F.I., well that is just foolish.

All that said, should the Evos be moved out of B/SP? Yes, but only if there is a classing structure that would not bury them. As I said earlier, add SS/PP, shuffle proper cars into it making SS/SP the playground for the real heavy hitter cars, and balance out B/SP without the Evo. Until then, Move some backermarker "old" A/SP cars into the new A/SP and let it rip. Not unlike the shuffle in Stock. My guess is that once the dust settled a lot of cars would be coming out from hiding.

OasisTan
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22 May 2010 04:47 PM

After checking quickly, it does appear prepping the Solstice could be a real biatch. Direct injection and the difficult software means cnc machining for the direct injection and stand alone ECU (above my understanding, just quoting from my sources) which is going to be a really expensive project since you'd be on your own. Maybe some of the other mods wouldn't help as much as I had initially though? That is quite possible other that they obvious mods mentioned earlier. Now, on to testing Evo vs Solstice/Sky as they sit..... So, Bob, you going to the local tomorrow at MCC? ;-)

Worst case scenario for me if the Evo does move is that I either sell the Evo or go to SM with a big fat turbo and 500whp. Either option will be easy and will produce much fun in different ways.

OasisTan
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22 May 2010 04:52 PM
talon95 wrote:

Yea, that's what I was alluding to earlier Mike. It may be that the upper classes in particular are just pricing themselves out of the market. I've been semi-sorta in favor of moving the Evo the last year or 2 (sorry Craig!), mainly because it does seem to be holding down a bunch of other good cars. But from reading this thread, I'm wondering just how much can be gained in participation by moving it. Are there really a lot of C4's still out there just waiting, or have those people mostly moved on?

And this is likely why ST is greatly outpacing SP in participation. Even though building an ST car is still somewhat expensive, it's still a lot cheaper than SP. The cars are still fairly streetable, IMO street tires are cheaper (yea, I know some don't agree), etc...

Dave G.

haha, its OK. I guess my gripe is that they waited for the class to start growing with Evo's and then they want to move them. Like I said in my post above though, if ASP proves uncompetitive in the long run, at least SP Evo's can easily move to SM, so, its not as big of a deal as it was when I first read Fastrack and hadn't thought about SM.

ada///M
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22 May 2010 04:58 PM

snaponbob wrote:
As for banning F.I., well that is just foolish.

Sorry I might not have been clear; I didn't mean ban fuel injection, I meant take away the allowance to modify/replace fuel injectors in SP. This would definitely keep the turbo monsters from using e85 and might even help regulate the boost to a reasonable level, I'm just guessing though, I don't know the flow figures of any of the turbo cars.

OasisTan
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22 May 2010 05:08 PM
mwood wrote:

After reading some of this thread, I have zero desire to leave stock class, unless I go to something like CM...custom fabbed titanium pieces to be "fully prepped"? For me, sure, I could throw $50-100,000 at a dedicated car...but, for autocrossing? Not going to happen.

I'm not taking anything away from those passionate, and talented, enough to go to those lengths, but if that's what it costs to play, I'll go back to road racing and save some money! [:|]

It seems, to me, that starting with a $1500 Miata and throwing $20-25,000 at it to run CSP is one thing, as you're still under the $30,000 threshold and people can kind of justify that in their heads (given a median income/baseline demographic kind of look at things), but when you're talking about starting with $25-50,000 cars and then an additional $20-30,000 in parts, you're into another space...one which, statistically, really narrows the pool...j

Sorry to get off topic, but reading the last couple of thoughts in this thread, about putting a little more "street" into street prepared, just hit me as logical.

I agree, SP is not cheap and definitely not for the budget minded or really even for the sane lol, that is why the numbers are lower. For me though, I highly prefer having a newer SP car with $45K in it that I can daily drive comfortably rather than a 15 year old miata with $25K in it that has to be trailered. I guess thats just personal taste.

As far as custom made titanium pieces and such...... Sure, one mod doesn't add up to much, but, you do all the mods possible to the entire car and it all starts adding up to better performance/times.

One good thing about the Evo is that all the mods retain a high amount of value due to all the guys wanting to mod their Evo's. When I was running the Mini's, with wheels/tires/shocks and all the other prep, you could easily have $30K in a new Mini prepped for GS and now for DS. The Evo is so much more fun that the Mini ever was, I just have $15K more into it, but, its worth more at the same time so its a wash in the end.

talon95
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22 May 2010 05:25 PM
OasisTan wrote:

haha, its OK. I guess my gripe is that they waited for the class to start growing with Evo's and then they want to move them. Like I said in my post above though, if ASP proves uncompetitive in the long run, at least SP Evo's can easily move to SM, so, its not as big of a deal as it was when I first read Fastrack and hadn't thought about SM.

Well, the reason I said "semi-sorta" was because of this exact situation. There really isn't a good place to move the Evo, so then the move will likely displace people like you with a big investment. The absolute worst result would be to do the move and BSP to remain at it's current level. At this point, I think there's a real chance that would happen too (because the real problem may be cost holding the class down which may not change).

Dave G.

mwood
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22 May 2010 05:44 PM
OasisTan wrote:
mwood wrote:

After reading some of this thread, I have zero desire to leave stock class, unless I go to something like CM...custom fabbed titanium pieces to be "fully prepped"? For me, sure, I could throw $50-100,000 at a dedicated car...but, for autocrossing? Not going to happen.

I'm not taking anything away from those passionate, and talented, enough to go to those lengths, but if that's what it costs to play, I'll go back to road racing and save some money! [:|]

It seems, to me, that starting with a $1500 Miata and throwing $20-25,000 at it to run CSP is one thing, as you're still under the $30,000 threshold and people can kind of justify that in their heads (given a median income/baseline demographic kind of look at things), but when you're talking about starting with $25-50,000 cars and then an additional $20-30,000 in parts, you're into another space...one which, statistically, really narrows the pool...j

Sorry to get off topic, but reading the last couple of thoughts in this thread, about putting a little more "street" into street prepared, just hit me as logical.

I agree, SP is not cheap and definitely not for the budget minded or really even for the sane lol, that is why the numbers are lower. For me though, I highly prefer having a newer SP car with $45K in it that I can daily drive comfortably rather than a 15 year old miata with $25K in it that has to be trailered. I guess thats just personal taste.

As far as custom made titanium pieces and such...... Sure, one mod doesn't add up to much, but, you do all the mods possible to the entire car and it all starts adding up to better performance/times.

One good thing about the Evo is that all the mods retain a high amount of value due to all the guys wanting to mod their Evo's. When I was running the Mini's, with wheels/tires/shocks and all the other prep, you could easily have $30K in a new Mini prepped for GS and now for DS. The Evo is so much more fun that the Mini ever was, I just have $15K more into it, but, its worth more at the same time so its a wash in the end.

If your car is still, seriously, a real daily driver, then that changes things...I agree, it is easier to justify an autocross car that is dual purpose.

Also, as I've said many times, moving the Evo's to ASP is not an answer, just a band aid.

ACM
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22 May 2010 11:36 PM
snaponbob wrote:

As strange as it may seem, I do not think that the Evo should be moved for the reasons that are presented in the May Fastrack. The fact is that B/SP has been GROWING for the last few years, and that FACT is in direct contradiction to what the SPAC and SEB are saying. Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.

Earlier someone suggested banning E85 and even fuel injection in SP. Well, he got it HALF right. Ban E85 unless the car is E85 capable as delivered. As for banning F.I., well that is just foolish.

All that said, should the Evos be moved out of B/SP? Yes, but only if there is a classing structure that would not bury them. As I said earlier, add SS/PP, shuffle proper cars into it making SS/SP the playground for the real heavy hitter cars, and balance out B/SP without the Evo. Until then, Move some backermarker "old" A/SP cars into the new A/SP and let it rip. Not unlike the shuffle in Stock. My guess is that once the dust settled a lot of cars would be coming out from hiding.

I'm (cautiously) in tacit agreement with this - I don't think Evos should be moved to ASP. Well, at least not the 8s, perhaps maybe the 9s, possibly. Tens with the SSt - oh boy, wow, holy cow - I can't think fast enough to drive one of those...

With the proposed moves from ASP to BSP, I think the playing field has been more that leveled for 90% of Evos (see above :-) , there's no justification at that point for moving Evos anywhere, at least not for a season or two. Extreme caution was evident classing Evos and STis initially - what is the justification for deviating from that now ?

Possibly a restriction to OEM injectors (across the board !) might level the playing field a little, but how would that affect non-Evos ? We need to hear from anyone and everyone running non-stock injectors. Plus - are injectors considered part of the engine, or update-backdate independently ?

We need a whole lot more data here before we allow the SPAC to rewrite another rule mid-season.

Charles

Cr0usEEE
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23 May 2010 04:14 AM

Well if your going to limit injectors then you need to remove the allowance to add fuel injection to older cars...which is a big take back.

My understanding is that the reason fuel injectors are allowed to be changed is the same reason carbs were allowed to be modified.

All you would then do is have people in SP pushing the stock injectors well past what is safe for tuning and lead to more exploded engines or burned out fuel injectors.

Basically if you can't modify or replace the stock fueling system you might as well eliminate ecu tuning/downpipe replacement/header replacement and the intake allowance. No reason to install them if you cant optimize for them...and some cars don't have the injector overhead to make up for that stuff.

Case in point...every other LS1 ESP camaro that I know of is still running stock injectors...my car burned up 2 of them making power. I added bigger ones just for safety and tuning overhead.

With the turbo engines...yeah no reason for the open boost rule without the inejectors...at which point it would be better to take back the open boost rule instead of injectors and then keep the Evo where it is at.

solo-x
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23 May 2010 04:57 AM
OasisTan wrote:
Nate

It corners better, has more rubber, fits 18x11 wheels, is definitely a bit lighter..... Enough with the bench racing since it means very little, lets do some real tests on course.

Craig

Why can't the EVO fit the 18x11's and 315's? And how big is the weight difference?

solo-x
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23 May 2010 05:17 AM
ada///M wrote:

how would everybody feel things would even out if E85, or maybe fuel injectors in general were taken out of SP? Could even the field back up again, without moving any cars out. Maybe a tire-width distinction between 2wd and 4wd models a'la ST?

Just throwing out ideas here. It does seem like the EVO crowd would get screwed over by this rule when a lot of the other cars haven't been attempted at the same level. Then again, if it looks dominant enough on paper that everyone else is scarred to spend SP money to attempt to compete with it, I know I am, something should probably be done about it.

"Take backs" is a four letter word. I personally would rather a wheel width/tire width limit, but now were talking arbitrary competition adjustments. Solo doesn't want to go there. Banning E85 would require fuel testing and setting a limit for ethanol content in fuel. (sure, it smells different, but asking Doug to walk through grid sniffing each cars exhaust pipe isn't gonna happen)

Any time a car is moved, somebody won't be happy. However, nobody is screwed if the car is moved to a class where, while no longer dominant, the car is still competitive.

4 cars at nats last year. That's the number of EVOs in the class. And the first non-EVO was a Solstice ~2 seconds off the pace. Reshuffling the rest of SP around one car where only 4 examples make it to the big dance seems a bit selfish.

Everything else in BSP has to overcome a 2+ second deficit. And these other BSP car owners get called out to "build a car, prove it isn't competitive!", totally missing the point that there WERE competitive, built cars in the class that got beat so hard they left. So, let me ask this. Why did you build an EVO for BSP if these other cars are just as fast and competitive? You did it because, on paper, the EVO is the best car. So, when someone else comes along, looks at the class, sees the huge deficit between the EVO and everything else, and can't find a car that even on paper has an advantage, how can you attack them for NOT building a car?

SMSupercoupe
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23 May 2010 05:19 AM
I would not support limiting injectors in SP. Injectors are clearly within the spirit of the current SP philosophy, and I'd rather see all forced induction cars classed properly in the first place than start talking about rule takebacks.
solo-x
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23 May 2010 05:23 AM
ACM wrote:
Extreme caution was evident classing Evos and STis initially - what is the justification for deviating from that now ?

I disagree. Extreme caution would be classing a car where it won't likely become an overdog out of the box. That is not what happened.

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