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Last Post 26 Sep 2011 11:32 AM by  solo-x
BSP may rise from the dead
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splash
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Posts:960


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23 May 2010 07:27 AM

[quote]Extreme caution was evident classing Evos and STis initially - what is the justification for deviating from that now ?

LOL!!!!

You do know that the EVOs and STis were initially classed in ESP, right?

Interesting how the EVO can start out near the bottom of SP and work its way clear to the top - sorta like the Jeffersons... "Movin' on up...."

chrisw
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23 May 2010 09:26 AM
Or just remove the fuel injector changes for forced induction cars in SP. That will hurt a lot of people who would otherwise not be in this argument. I think moving the EVO's out of BSP is the right answer. My EVO 8 is barely competitive against the EVO IX. Dollar for dollar spent, an EVO IX will always be faster. People have to remember that with the EVO, every year Mitsubishi improved the car. You can almost consider each car a "new model" to some degree, as performance improvements were offered each year. Here is a simple breakdown of the model differences as related to this argument. 2003 - USDM EVO introduced with Open front diff, NO active center diff, 9.8 compressor housing on the turbo. <- note the turbo size 2004 - lightweight RS model introduced with LSD front diff, No active center diff, 9.8 compressor housing 2005 - Front LSD standard, Active center diff added. revised head for better airflow. MR and RS models get an aluminum roof, 10.5 compressor housing. <- 2006 - Aluminum roof standard, variable valve timing added to intake, more updates to the head design, larger turbo ( I forget the size, it's huge! ) I think despite any evidence presented to the contrary, the EVO will be bumped. hopefully some logic will prevail and an intelligent decision will be made. I don't think ALL the EVO's should be bumped, their performance is defiantly not equal. In "ESP" trim, even with modern boost rules there is no way you could break 320whp with the 9.8 turbo. Despite the extra weight, I think the active center diff makes a larger difference in performance than most people realize. Developments are being made right now that allow you to reprogram how the center diff applies the torque split between the front and rear. There are significant gains to be made there. Just ask and STI owner who has played with the center diff settings on their cars..
snaponbob
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23 May 2010 10:03 AM
OasisTan wrote:

After checking quickly, it does appear prepping the Solstice could be a real biatch. Direct injection and the difficult software means cnc machining for the direct injection and stand alone ECU (above my understanding, just quoting from my sources) which is going to be a really expensive project since you'd be on your own. Maybe some of the other mods wouldn't help as much as I had initially though? That is quite possible other that they obvious mods mentioned earlier. Now, on to testing Evo vs Solstice/Sky as they sit..... So, Bob, you going to the local tomorrow at MCC? ;-)

Worst case scenario for me if the Evo does move is that I either sell the Evo or go to SM with a big fat turbo and 500whp. Either option will be easy and will produce much fun in different ways.

On the phone call, you didn't hear me say I was in Santa Fe for the weekend. Wish I had the Sky with me -------- this is SERIOUS top down country.

MNbiker
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23 May 2010 07:13 PM

snaponbob wrote:
..... Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.....

Here's one from a local shop that appears to be a 100% SP-legal engine build, and includes the Mustang dyno plot, time slip, and video of 1/4 mile run:
http://www.mnsportcompacts.net/foru...-Videos-up

401 whp
439 lb/ft
10.88 1/4 mile

Solid enough proof for you? [;)]

OasisTan
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Posts:1355


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23 May 2010 09:13 PM
MNbiker wrote:

snaponbob wrote:
..... Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.....

Here's one from a local shop that appears to be a 100% SP-legal engine build, and includes the Mustang dyno plot, time slip, and video of 1/4 mile run:
http://www.mnsportcompacts.net/foru...-Videos-up

401 whp
439 lb/ft
10.88 1/4 mile

Solid enough proof for you? [;)]

8700 rpm redline? lol Definitely not SP legal, several SM parts listed there as well. Who knows what he doesn't have listed or what he might not know about since he bought it built. I know of SM larger turbo'd Evo's that can't run 10.88. I smell some hidden mods there for sure.

OasisTan
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Posts:1355


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23 May 2010 09:17 PM
solo-x wrote:
OasisTan wrote:
Nate

It corners better, has more rubber, fits 18x11 wheels, is definitely a bit lighter..... Enough with the bench racing since it means very little, lets do some real tests on course.

Craig

Why can't the EVO fit the 18x11's and 315's? And how big is the weight difference?

Wouldn't be able to fit them because the tire would hit the front bumper and back of fender when turning. 315's would hurt gearing IMHO. 285's are perfect for the Evo. Weight difference.... Just guessing, I would say 100-150ish, just a guess though.

OasisTan
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Posts:1355


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23 May 2010 09:46 PM

solo-x wrote:
And these other BSP car owners get called out to "build a car, prove it isn't competitive!", totally missing the point that there WERE competitive, built cars in the class that got beat so hard they left. So, let me ask this. Why did you build an EVO for BSP if these other cars are just as fast and competitive? You did it because, on paper, the EVO is the best car. So, when someone else comes along, looks at the class, sees the huge deficit between the EVO and everything else, and can't find a car that even on paper has an advantage, how can you attack them for NOT building a car?

I'll answer this one....

I bought an Evo because its easy to tune them, there are parts readily available everywhere, I like AWD for Prosolo/rain and I wanted 4 seats at the time when I bought it. That, and, it appeared that the Evo had safely landed in BSP where I knew it would be a competitive ultra fun car for more than just a year or 2. Maybe the Evo is an overdog, who knows, there aren't enough competitors in other cars showing up. Look at Kritzlers results, it seems he is as close to the top as he has been in the last 6 years or so. Is it because of the surface in Lincoln? Who knows.

Also, I wonder how a 135i would do, it can obtain 400whp/tq(fairly easy if I am not mistaken). I have no idea what the limit is for HP on that monster engine, maybe its more?

One other SP class to note since we are talking about one car dominance. I know the Miata is an overdog in CSP, the top 27 competitors were ALL in Miata's. 5 of the bottom 6 were in non-miata's.

Reasons BSP should keep the Evo 8/9.

1) BSP is growing in numbers

2) of the 8 trophy winners, there were 3 different manufactures showing diversity

3) look at other classes, its not uncommon for the champion to have a large margin of victory over other trophy winners, so, lets look at the ONE years data that we have in Lincoln

a) ASP vettes were 1.6 seconds ahead of non-vettes(Porsche GT2)

b) CSP Miata's were 12 seconds ahead of non-miata

c) BSP roughly 2 seconds ahead of non-Evo

4) Put Berry in his old Vette, I still give him a damn good chance to win BSP.

5) The Evos were moved to BSP and settled in, why move them when the class is growing? Talk about moving a car though and the class will cease to grow. For example, look at GS, SCCA killed the class by talking of moving every year so people quit buying Minis. Even though GS was a spec class, it didn't matter because the numbers were strong until threats of moving the car. If people start worrying the Evo will get moved, noone will build one for BSP. I know I wouldn't.

6) Lincoln is a new surface, 2006 is when the Evo was moved to BSP while at HPT. The Vette and other RWD cars(135i, Solstice) are better off on CONCRETE compared to asphalt versus the Evo. I am not convinced that the Vette wouldn't win with the correct driver. Didn't BSP run 1st heat during day 1/2 at HPT for a couple years in a row? If so, damn right an AWD Evo is going to have an advantage on slick asphalt. Not the case on rubbered in concrete though.

OK, gotta run......

BMoore
Basic Member
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Posts:147


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23 May 2010 11:22 PM
OasisTan wrote:


4) Put Berry in his old Vette, I still give him a damn good chance to win BSP. \

I saw this and got all giddy like a school girl and couldn't wait until tomorrow to post my response. IF Tom Berry is WILLING to do so, I'm willing to extend the offer for him to co-drive the BSP car at a tour. He wont find a better prepared BSP 'Vette than ours (well, at least with all the right parts, prepardness is determinant of the driver).

There will be more on the other matters later.

BMoore
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:147


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23 May 2010 11:28 PM
OasisTan wrote:

4) Put Berry in his old Vette, I still give him a damn good chance to win BSP. OK, gotta run......

I Talked to Tom at nationals, and apparently my car is sporting a steering knuckle stolen off of his old BSP 'vette, opposite the one I decided to shatter on my second (well, third if you count the re-run, I'm still not happy about the re-run non-sense).

Anywho, the fact of the matter is that he HAD a BSP Vette, but now runs an EVO. If that doesn't say anything, I don't know what does. A class winner that used to have a good car, who's model was usually VERY competitive used to dominate the class, why'd he switch to an EVO? hmmmmmm..... Where's Sherlock when you need him?

Dave Hardy
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:851


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24 May 2010 04:22 AM
OasisTan wrote:
MNbiker wrote:

snaponbob wrote:
..... Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.....

Here's one from a local shop that appears to be a 100% SP-legal engine build, and includes the Mustang dyno plot, time slip, and video of 1/4 mile run:
http://www.mnsportcompacts.net/foru...-Videos-up

401 whp
439 lb/ft
10.88 1/4 mile

Solid enough proof for you? [;)]

8700 rpm redline? lol Definitely not SP legal, several SM parts listed there as well. Who knows what he doesn't have listed or what he might not know about since he bought it built. I know of SM larger turbo'd Evo's that can't run 10.88. I smell some hidden mods there for sure.

There is nothing illegal about a raised redline. Which parts are not SP legal? The only one that seemed questionable was the O2 housing, because I'm not sure if it's considered part of the turbo (has to remain stock) or part of the downpipe (open in SP, right?). As for it running faster than "faster" cars, there's a lot to driver skill, a lot to tuning skill, and don't forget that this car mounted up 4 drag slicks, which is not the approach most Evo's take.

veloscaraptor
New Member
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24 May 2010 09:00 AM
DILYSI Dave wrote:
OasisTan wrote:
MNbiker wrote:

snaponbob wrote:
..... Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.....

Here's one from a local shop that appears to be a 100% SP-legal engine build, and includes the Mustang dyno plot, time slip, and video of 1/4 mile run:
http://www.mnsportcompacts.net/foru...-Videos-up

401 whp
439 lb/ft
10.88 1/4 mile

Solid enough proof for you? [;)]

8700 rpm redline? lol Definitely not SP legal, several SM parts listed there as well. Who knows what he doesn't have listed or what he might not know about since he bought it built. I know of SM larger turbo'd Evo's that can't run 10.88. I smell some hidden mods there for sure.

There is nothing illegal about a raised redline. Which parts are not SP legal? The only one that seemed questionable was the O2 housing, because I'm not sure if it's considered part of the turbo (has to remain stock) or part of the downpipe (open in SP, right?). As for it running faster than "faster" cars, there's a lot to driver skill, a lot to tuning skill, and don't forget that this car mounted up 4 drag slicks, which is not the approach most Evo's take.

imho, the O2 housing is part of the downpipe. The STU guys (and gals) change out O2 housings, and that is deemed legal, so the same should apply to SP since the downpipe is open in both classes.

deeda
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24 May 2010 09:44 AM

Does this proposed move of the Evo replace the proposed move of a buncha BSP RWD cars to CSP?

OasisTan
Veteran Member
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Posts:1355


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24 May 2010 09:44 AM
DILYSI Dave wrote:
OasisTan wrote:
MNbiker wrote:

snaponbob wrote:
..... Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.....

Here's one from a local shop that appears to be a 100% SP-legal engine build, and includes the Mustang dyno plot, time slip, and video of 1/4 mile run:
http://www.mnsportcompacts.net/foru...-Videos-up

401 whp
439 lb/ft
10.88 1/4 mile

Solid enough proof for you? [;)]

8700 rpm redline? lol Definitely not SP legal, several SM parts listed there as well. Who knows what he doesn't have listed or what he might not know about since he bought it built. I know of SM larger turbo'd Evo's that can't run 10.88. I smell some hidden mods there for sure.

There is nothing illegal about a raised redline. Which parts are not SP legal? The only one that seemed questionable was the O2 housing, because I'm not sure if it's considered part of the turbo (has to remain stock) or part of the downpipe (open in SP, right?). As for it running faster than "faster" cars, there's a lot to driver skill, a lot to tuning skill, and don't forget that this car mounted up 4 drag slicks, which is not the approach most Evo's take.

The intercooler for one, the Buschur won't fit without removing the under tray. All the lightweight parts(buschur parts). Who knows, he may have stripped the interior as well, so, maybe that is why its so damn fast in the 1/4 mile. I know, that doesn't have anything to do with the dyno numbers though. I'll see if I can get ahold of the guy and get more info since I am a member on the board where he posted. I am going to get mine on a dyno soon, so, should be able to post up some 100% confirmed numbers for a BSP Evo.

snaponbob
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Posts:2862


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24 May 2010 09:44 AM
No magic about what that Evo produced. E85 was the fuel, and with his upgraded delivery system, he tuned to that. How LONG that engine will live is another story. Dyno racing is fine I guess, but hand grenades are not always the way to go. Maybe SP needs to be a pump GAS set of classes.
OasisTan
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Posts:1355


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24 May 2010 09:46 AM
DILYSI Dave wrote:
OasisTan wrote:
MNbiker wrote:

snaponbob wrote:
..... Further, I would like to see the evidence that Evos are pushing 400WHP, another point that the SAB and SPAC are presenting. Can't prove it, can't use it.....

Here's one from a local shop that appears to be a 100% SP-legal engine build, and includes the Mustang dyno plot, time slip, and video of 1/4 mile run:
http://www.mnsportcompacts.net/foru...-Videos-up

401 whp
439 lb/ft
10.88 1/4 mile

Solid enough proof for you? [;)]

8700 rpm redline? lol Definitely not SP legal, several SM parts listed there as well. Who knows what he doesn't have listed or what he might not know about since he bought it built. I know of SM larger turbo'd Evo's that can't run 10.88. I smell some hidden mods there for sure.

There is nothing illegal about a raised redline. Which parts are not SP legal? The only one that seemed questionable was the O2 housing, because I'm not sure if it's considered part of the turbo (has to remain stock) or part of the downpipe (open in SP, right?). As for it running faster than "faster" cars, there's a lot to driver skill, a lot to tuning skill, and don't forget that this car mounted up 4 drag slicks, which is not the approach most Evo's take.

Sorry, should have been more clear, you cannot run 8700 rpm's in an Evo without your engine falling apart..... Unless you have some beefier internal mods to the engine that aren't BSP legal.

OasisTan
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Posts:1355


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24 May 2010 09:49 AM
BMoore wrote:
OasisTan wrote:

4) Put Berry in his old Vette, I still give him a damn good chance to win BSP. OK, gotta run......

I Talked to Tom at nationals, and apparently my car is sporting a steering knuckle stolen off of his old BSP 'vette, opposite the one I decided to shatter on my second (well, third if you count the re-run, I'm still not happy about the re-run non-sense).

Anywho, the fact of the matter is that he HAD a BSP Vette, but now runs an EVO. If that doesn't say anything, I don't know what does. A class winner that used to have a good car, who's model was usually VERY competitive used to dominate the class, why'd he switch to an EVO? hmmmmmm..... Where's Sherlock when you need him?

Fair enough, you might be right. But, he never ran the car on the Lincoln concrete, I figured the playing field would have been leveled a bit more versus HPT which is the surface we had when he built the Evo. I'd like to see him run it maybe on the test course just as a test? I'll kick in some tire money for a hanful of runs if so. ;-)

CHRISFP78
Basic Member
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Posts:495


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24 May 2010 09:57 AM

snaponbob wrote:
No magic about what that Evo produced. E85 was the fuel, and with his upgraded delivery system, he tuned to that. How LONG that engine will live is another story. Dyno racing is fine I guess, but hand grenades are not always the way to go. Maybe SP needs to be a pump GAS set of classes.

Um, E85 is pump gas.

snaponbob
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Posts:2862


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24 May 2010 10:02 AM
CHRISFP78 wrote:

snaponbob wrote:
No magic about what that Evo produced. E85 was the fuel, and with his upgraded delivery system, he tuned to that. How LONG that engine will live is another story. Dyno racing is fine I guess, but hand grenades are not always the way to go. Maybe SP needs to be a pump GAS set of classes.

Um, E85 is pump gas.

Technically, yes. But more accurately it is a FUEL. It's 85% alcohol. (Yes, I am stating the obvious, so not insults to anybody was intended.) Additionally, it is not available everywhere. And it only works in cars that are specifcally engineered to run it. And that puts the cars that are not at a distinct disadvantage. I doubt that the existing rule set was written with the INTENT of allowing what a few years ago would have been a fuel that was not allowed.

DrJones_CMR
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:527


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24 May 2010 10:20 AM

Whew, i go to Mexico for work for a week and look what happens!

1. The clutch and flywheel made a big diffrence!

2. my car was 2950 lbs last year, hopefully lighter this year with the diet.

3. I agree with the proposal (that the EVO scared many competitors away). I'm not really sure if it should have yet or not.

4. If it was like this last year I would have won! but it probably wouldn't have felt as good as the 4th i actually got my 1st year at nationals.

Like i've said many times before, no matter where ever the EVO's go or where ever the GXP's go I'll still run my car. I just have too much fun in it :)

rlhammon
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24 May 2010 10:44 AM
OasisTan wrote:

solo-x wrote:
And these other BSP car owners get called out to "build a car, prove it isn't competitive!", totally missing the point that there WERE competitive, built cars in the class that got beat so hard they left. So, let me ask this. Why did you build an EVO for BSP if these other cars are just as fast and competitive? You did it because, on paper, the EVO is the best car. So, when someone else comes along, looks at the class, sees the huge deficit between the EVO and everything else, and can't find a car that even on paper has an advantage, how can you attack them for NOT building a car?

I'll answer this one....

Reasons BSP should keep the Evo 8/9.

1) BSP is growing in numbers

2) of the 8 trophy winners, there were 3 different manufactures showing diversity

3) look at other classes, its not uncommon for the champion to have a large margin of victory over other trophy winners, so, lets look at the ONE years data that we have in Lincoln

a) ASP vettes were 1.6 seconds ahead of non-vettes(Porsche GT2)

b) CSP Miata's were 12 seconds ahead of non-miata

c) BSP roughly 2 seconds ahead of non-Evo

4) Put Berry in his old Vette, I still give him a damn good chance to win BSP.

5) The Evos were moved to BSP and settled in, why move them when the class is growing? Talk about moving a car though and the class will cease to grow. For example, look at GS, SCCA killed the class by talking of moving every year so people quit buying Minis. Even though GS was a spec class, it didn't matter because the numbers were strong until threats of moving the car. If people start worrying the Evo will get moved, noone will build one for BSP. I know I wouldn't.

6) Lincoln is a new surface, 2006 is when the Evo was moved to BSP while at HPT. The Vette and other RWD cars(135i, Solstice) are better off on CONCRETE compared to asphalt versus the Evo. I am not convinced that the Vette wouldn't win with the correct driver. Didn't BSP run 1st heat during day 1/2 at HPT for a couple years in a row? If so, damn right an AWD Evo is going to have an advantage on slick asphalt. Not the case on rubbered in concrete though.

OK, gotta run......

OK.. so I'm new to signing up for the forum, but not new. In the interest of full disclosure I've got a Solstice GXP that's still in the midst of being prepped for BSP. I was happy in A stock, but wanted some more power (still a daily warm weather driver), and the tune moved me to BSP. I'm not fond of the Evo's in my class... but that didn't steer me away from BSP. I wouldn't mind some of the other classes but the GXP doesn't have many choices (as Bob mentioned).

I'm a bit lost here... in #2 you state 3 manufactures... I see three brands (Chevy & Pontiac are both obviously GM - which is the manufacturer), but that's nit picking and not my point. In #5 you talk about how moving a car causes the class to stop growing, but in #1 you state the class is growing. Looking at the 2009 results I only see 4 EVO's, (7 drivers), and they won 6 of the 8 trophies (I believe that is right). I'm not sure what the class looked like before, but I don't believe that the growth is coming from the EVO's (your point in #1, growth in class), so why would the class be killed (your point in #5) if they are moved? You talk about diversity (point #2), but state the class would be dead (point #5) without them.

If those EVO's weren't there, you'd have more diversity in brands (and manufactures) winning trophies, which strengthens your point #2, and there seems (from reading this thread) to be support that the class would grow with past competitive cars (which you seem to indicate in point #1).

So... are you for the move, or against the move? ;)

Seriously though.. not trying to be an a$$.. but trying to understand. Don't get me wrong, from a purely selfish stand point I'd love the EVO's to move... it would help me. I'm not going to write a letter and waste time with that sort of nonsense though... but this thread is interesting and I'm hoping to learn about the history from past moves, weigh implications and provide feedback.

If you are looking for a fully prepped BSP Solstice GXP, Alex's is as close as you'll get. As Bob pointed out (and I assume you two talked on the phone from his post) there simply isn't a lot that can be done to the Solstice in comparison to the EVO's. That's fine.. you have to live those limitations, but if have to have multi brand / model / manufacturer representation in a class you can't have it dominated by a single car... nobody will play in that sandbox after awhile.

What to do to fix it, I don't know. But I'm enjoying the thread and will deal with what ever happens since I'm in BSP now.

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