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Last Post 16 Oct 2015 02:52 PM by  whitecivic
CM Cars For Sale...
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t walgamuth
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25 Nov 2010 03:20 AM

Heh!

(I will check it out thoroughly).

Clemens
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26 Nov 2010 12:46 PM

It appears that a few more people are finally catching on to the fact that CM and FM cars can be quite a bargain.

I just read the latest installment on Mazda MX-5 TireRack STR project car in GRM last night. Let's do a quick comparison:

After coming back from Nationals, they wrapped up the project for this season with a couple of comments:

"Our goal for this project has remained consistent: Build a competitive car using reasonably priced off-the-shelf parts while keeping the ride comfortable for daily driving. As we reflect on this premise, we think we hit the nail on the head.

However, we think there's more work to be done. Another season of sorting should help us bring home even more top-shelf hardware the next time we visit Lincoln."

They listed the cost of the upgrades, which came out to ~$6600 based on retail prices, most of it for a set of wheels, coil-overs, and an exhaust system. However, this also includes a set of tires ($650) and a few quarts of oil ($50), which I consider consumables and not part of a performance upgrade. Also, it is often possible to get parts for less than retail. Nevertheless, we are still talking about almost $6k just for bolt-on upgrades alone (they did not count the cost for a couple of alignments and some dyno tuning. This is in the neighborhood what Nick, Geoff, and Tom paid for their cars that came with spares and multiple sets of wheels (at least some of them). And the $6k for the GRM project does not even include a car, which is probably another $15-20k. The MX-5 keeps depreciating, while the guys who just bought the FFs can run their cars for five years and sell them again for the same price.

O.k., when purchasing a road race FF, one also needs the integral first gear, but it may also be possible to sell some of the spares that made sense for road racing, but less so for autocrossing, in order to finance the gears. Also, a tow vehicle and a trailer is an absolute must, which is additional cost and also requires storage space for the trailer. However, Tom, for example already has a trailer and tow vehicle, and most people own vehicles that are capable of pulling a FF on a light-weight trailer.

Note that the GRM article indicates that more money must be invested in the MX-5 next year. The article also shows a picture with the TireRack/GRM car sitting next to the winning car that has a dual-element wing on the trunk lid and an OS Giken sticker on the rear bumper. I am not sure what those cost, but am guessing $0.5-1k for the wing and $2k for the differential. No matter how you look at it, I believe the cost figures always come out in favor of the CM car. Also keep in mind that we are comparing cars with a 0.906 (CM) vs. 0.836 (STR) PAX numbers. Guess which one is more fun to drive, although it is hard to put a value on that aspect.

There are certainly a lot of decision factors that figure into car selection, and there is more that matters than just the cost of the car and the necessary modifications. People have different preferences and constraints, and the same car is not right for everybody. However, I am still amazed that STR was able to bring over 50 drivers to Lincoln this year and CM didn't even make the Rulebook minimum listed in Rule 4.9. That is even more amazing considering that STR didn't even exist one year ago and the guy who won in Lincoln isn't even a National Champion. When looking at these two classes, I know which I would pick, with the cost/fun ratio being a huge plus for CM.

Another great story is the guy in our region who just picked up an FM car for less than $3k. He finished his first event in the new car 7th out of 90 drivers based on PAX, just over one second out of first, and third based on raw time. He tows the race car with his old Subaru autocrosser using a little trailer that can be purchased at Lowe's for ~1k. And he now runs circles about the guys who have $30 k in their Subarus.

I thought it was neat to read the GRM MX-5 build and see the costs listed all in one place. Most people probably don't know for sure how much money they have in their cars, especially when spreading out the modifications over time, one or two at a time.

Clemens

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
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Posts:680


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26 Nov 2010 01:18 PM

True all. I thought about going STR with my old Miata but that looks like a big hole in which to pour money to me. I ran my car two years and honed my driving skills until I felt my car was possibly holding me back. I started looking at options including Solstices and S2000's. I decided the S2000 was the better choice based on nationals results, but invest 12K in one of those and also face the bigger bill in either car for larger tires and after all that you are always a year away from a potential classing change which makes your car a non contender.

The CM will present a car that probably will not reasonably hold me back for a good long while and if and when I decide to sell it along will probably be about what I am paying for it.

Plus it should be a cerifiable HOOT to drive!

The only real drawback is I cannot drive it back and forth to work. I may keep the old Miata for that duty and sell off one of my old benzes.

Another plus is I can pull the CM on its little trailer with one of my old Mercedes diesels instead of my huge Dodge. (Though the big dodge will not use all that much more fuel than one of the benzes)!

Dick Rasmussen
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26 Nov 2010 05:02 PM

As Clemens says, a CM or FM car can be viable for MANY years. I bought an 85 VD in 1991 for about $10K (plus $2.5K for an extra engine "just in case") and got very carried away and spent maybe another $10K initially for all sorts of stuff. However, that "stuff" has served well for 18 years with very little work/money needed for non consumables in the interim. Towed the car initially with an 88 5.0 Mustang.

One of the really nice things about CM is that the car's competitiveness (not the driver, the car [:$]) ) hasn't changed in 8 "layoff" years. Try that in Stock, etc.

Meanwhile I get to pick daily drivers for what I want and can afford for a daily driver. No need to "worry" about autox competiveness.

Obviously a "non daily driver" and a trailer need a "place to stay" so a Mod car isn't for everyone who would like to have one and has the purchase price, etc but doesn't have available garage or trailer space.

The only thing I miss about a streetable autox car is being able to "test drive" it on the street. Of course, the last time I did that with my Lotus Europa in 1984 or so I got a ticket so maybe the loss isn't so great afterall. [;)]

Dick

CM85

85VD

adhowe70
Advanced Member
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Posts:770


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26 Nov 2010 07:38 PM

Clemens hits the nail on the head. It is hard to argue with the amount of fun that a CM car is given the price of entry. Here are what I see at the intimidating factors for the newcomers (speaking as a recent newcomer):

You have to work on them yourself. Not explicitly true, but you can't take it to the dealer. Also, the bumper to bumper warranty doesn't buy you much. That said, these cars are EASY to work on. And the hard stuff is easily farmed out to the specialty shops. How does a non-formula car guy figure this out? He or she needs to shadow an existing owner. I replaced the clutch slave cylinder with out even jacking the car up. I've got the entire front suspension off the car, but I could have it reassembled in a couple hours.

You need a tow rig and a trailer. This shouldn't be viewed as a tough one for most serious autocrossers. I've towed my stock class cars to and from Nationals since 2004 - basically ever since I bought a sports car. (A serious effort at Nationals requires more stuff than can fit on a baby sized tire trailer.) And for those that aren't heavily invested, you can tow these cars on a small trailer with just about anything. My car came with a trailer... gross loaded weight was around 2,000 pounds. We are, however, buying an enclosed trailer for those inclement weather days that are somewhat common in the Northwest.

Driving a Hewland. Folks... it isn't that hard. Roll off the throttle for a moment and shift with confidence. Everything will be just fine. Lay off the clutch, it doesn't do anything important unless you are in the paddock or grid. (I am still using the clutch going up to third gear and I dip it when coming back down.)

Where do you test it? On course. This is no big loss. Everything meaningful that you would learn should be learned on the track anyway. Anything over 1g on the street is just plain dumb given the design standards.

I paid $6k for car and trailer (and some spares). I put a set of new tires on it and can take TTOD at our regional events unless someone comes in from out of town. (Cheng / Milligan, Marich, etc.) I'm selling my ES Miata (with comparable spares and bigger trailer) for $7.5k. Tires cost the same. The CM car burns less (but more expensive) gas. My wife likes the CM car better. I traded up from an 0.825 index to a 0.906 index. By the end of August, I should be in a position to place the same at Nationals next year as I did this year.

Where is the down side?

Andy

barryott
New Member
New Member
Posts:63


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28 Nov 2010 08:50 AM
adhowe70 wrote:

Driving a Hewland. Folks... it isn't that hard. Roll off the throttle for a moment and shift with confidence. Everything will be just fine. Lay off the clutch, it doesn't do anything important unless you are in the paddock or grid. (I am still using the clutch going up to third gear and I dip it when coming back down.)

Where do you test it? On course. This is no big loss. Everything meaningful that you would learn should be learned on the track anyway. Anything over 1g on the street is just plain dumb given the design standards.

Andy

Yeah, shifting a Hewland is easy, You pretty much do all the same stuff but the timing is a little different

Testing: We have a local cart track that lets me run my FF there. It has Autocross sized features, I don't quite get to the top of 4th on the longest straight and it's only $50 a day. It's the best testing I've ever had for any of my autocross cars! Maybe other places have similar tracks, it's worth asking around???

barryott
New Member
New Member
Posts:63


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28 Nov 2010 08:50 AM
adhowe70 wrote:

Driving a Hewland. Folks... it isn't that hard. Roll off the throttle for a moment and shift with confidence. Everything will be just fine. Lay off the clutch, it doesn't do anything important unless you are in the paddock or grid. (I am still using the clutch going up to third gear and I dip it when coming back down.)

Where do you test it? On course. This is no big loss. Everything meaningful that you would learn should be learned on the track anyway. Anything over 1g on the street is just plain dumb given the design standards.

Andy

Yeah, shifting a Hewland is easy, You pretty much do all the same stuff but the timing is a little different

Testing: We have a local cart track that lets me run my FF there. It has Autocross sized features, I don't quite get to the top of 4th on the longest straight and it's only $50 a day. It's the best testing I've ever had for any of my autocross cars! Maybe other places have similar tracks, it's worth asking around???

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


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08 Dec 2010 01:49 PM
pru wrote:

Via ApexSpeed FF Classified Section

1985 Reynard FF : DE / includes open trailer / $6500

I am heading out Saturday dark and early to go look at and hopefully bring this one home to the Indy region!

Jimmy and I are going.

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


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09 Dec 2010 06:42 AM
I have been offered some nice steel sawhorses which I am seriously considering. The same fellow is offering gears marked 20/32 for the tranny. Is this a gear that would be useful to an autocrosser?
Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


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09 Dec 2010 07:55 AM
Assuming a 9:31 r&p the 20/32 is about 84mph at 6800 rpm. That might be a good choice for 3rd or 4th depending on your gearing "philosopy" regarding second gear.

Dick
t walgamuth
Advanced Member
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Posts:680


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14 Dec 2010 10:21 PM

So Jimmy and I went off on Saturday morning early to go to Deleware and check out and hopefully bring back the 85 Reynard FF. Our plan was working to a T until we hit Wheeling WVA and the truck died!

Yikes!

So we got the truck towed to Middle Creek Towing and did some investigation and we preliminarily decided it was a bad lift pump on the big Cummnins. They then towed the beast to the Dodge dealer for verification and repair on Monday.

On the good side, When I broke down I called my formula ford seller and he agreed to bring the race car here!

So on Sunday about 100 we went to the local municipal park (at the suggestion of the local gendarme) and test drove the little car around a large parking lot. I managed to spin it 270 degrees on slicks in the rain and I was just trying to check all the gears. It is a tight fit but I believe I will be able to have a lot of fun with it.

After that we went over to the towing service/auto repair/storage units/uhaul rental place that towed me in off the highway. They very generously (they are racers) allowed us to pull the race car into their garage where the seller pulled off all the body panels and explained how to fill this and adjust that for about an hour, then they allowed me to put it inside their fenced lot for security. (Thanks Doug, Gary and Gary at Middle Creek Towing!)

So Saturday did not end so well but Sunday was a pretty grand day.

Monday we were at the Dealer when they opened. After a few hours the diagnosis was confirmed and the parts ordered from Cleveland. They did some of the disassembly work on Monday afternoon so when the parts arrived at 8 am they were able to finish the Big Dog by 1015 am. We then picked up the FF from the impound at Middle Creek towing and headed home.

The FF is in the garage now thawing out.

And after Four days of forced companionship Jimmy and I are still friends and planning to co drive the Reynard next year.

The only fly in the ointment is that while the Big Dodge was at the dealership on Sat evening and Sunday someone stole my lightweight floor jack out of the back.

But I am still feeling pretty good about the Reynard!

Dick Rasmussen
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:931


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14 Dec 2010 10:26 PM

Congratulations and welcome to CM!

Dick

CM 85

t walgamuth
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:680


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15 Dec 2010 04:17 PM
Thanks very much!
pru
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:151


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20 Dec 2010 01:30 PM

Via ApexSpeed : 1985 Mondiale M85S

I have a 1985 Mondiale M85S For Sale. I know the sister car to mine has been doing auto X for a number of years now. Mine is set up to club race but can easily be converted over to run auto X. If you do a search on here it should be in the FF classifieds. Looking to sell as a roller.

Andrew
thunderracing191@hotmail.com

Looks like the car has been on/off the market several times...

GChambers
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1928


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20 Dec 2010 04:52 PM

Pru, I'm assuming this one is still for sale though. Already set up for autocross.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...ostcount=9

Robert Puertas
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:761


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20 Dec 2010 05:20 PM
GChambers wrote:

Pru, I'm assuming this one is still for sale though. Already set up for autocross.

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/sho...ostcount=9

Nope.

That one is now mine.

pru
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:151


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08 Jan 2011 03:00 PM

Via ApexSpeed : Crossle 65F

2010 Championship winning car in OFFC B Class. Crossle 65F, scholar based engine, double Koni's, Aim (new in 10), fuel cell inspected apr 10, new belts may 10, panasports, spares, good solid regional car. $10K CDN, FOB Buffalo. Brian 705 456 9781 or brian.bgr@xplornet.com
GChambers
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1928


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09 Jan 2011 11:57 AM
pru wrote:

Via ApexSpeed : Crossle 65F

2010 Championship winning car in OFFC B Class. Crossle 65F, scholar based engine, double Koni's, Aim (new in 10), fuel cell inspected apr 10, new belts may 10, panasports, spares, good solid regional car. $10K CDN, FOB Buffalo. Brian 705 456 9781 or brian.bgr@xplornet.com

Wow, I like that. Someone get on this one.

pru
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:151


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15 Jan 2011 12:34 PM
Found while browsing eBay: 1983 Van Dieman Formula Ford

Not mine nor anyone I know, but this car was listed before at roughly the same time last year : http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37333

Like I noted in the thread from last year, appears to be a nice car. Only wish it was a bit closer to take a look in person and/or haul it home!
pru
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:151


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16 Jan 2011 07:41 PM
Via ApexSpeed : RF90 Van Diemen / $16,000 / Sioux Falls, SD / Set up for Solo...
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