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Last Post 25 Sep 2010 08:32 PM by  old fart
Six-wheel AMod?
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Scootin159
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Posts:183


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02 Sep 2010 06:41 AM

    Was reading an interesting article about the history of F1's six-wheel vehicles (http://forix.autosport.com/8w/sixwh...ers.html). I'm sure many of you are familiar with the Tyrrell P34, but that's not the one that caught my interest here. It's the Williams FW08D - basically the Williams FW08 with dual (driven) rear axles. What's of note of this car was the extreme traction it was able to generate under acceleration, which the article notes threatened to be enough of an advantage that it was outlawed. Even more of note was how much an advantage it was in the hill-climb circuits.

    Given how traction-limited top level AMod cars are, it stands to reason that you could vastly improve on the current "standard" by implementing dual rear axles. Also given a standard chain drive, it seems it would actually be pretty easy to make both axles powered as well. The question I have is, would this be legal under the current solo rules? As it's a very "lateral" way of thinking, it's not directly addressed anywhere I could find within the rules, and given AMod's inverted "if it doesn't say you can't, you can" philosophy, it seems to me this might actually be legal. Obviously it would be a huge risk though, as once someone builds a car like this (and presumably has a huge advantage), it very well could be outlawed, making all that investment worthless.

    Does anybody else see anything in the rules to prevent this? I would not at all be surprised if it was inheriently disallowed somehow (isn't there a limit on two driven wheels in AMod? I couldn't find it...), but in my limited search, I couldn't find anything. If it is allowed, I very well may have an idea for my next project ;)

    snaponbob
    Veteran Member
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    Posts:2862


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    02 Sep 2010 07:29 AM

    The very first sentence in the Mod rules (Sec 18) states "Sports cars and sedans altered in excess of Prepared Category, sports racing and two-seat specials, Formula cars, single-seat specials, dune buggies and kit car".

    Since all classes "build" on "lower" classes, and there is no wording that says 6 wheels are allowed, then they probably aren't. "If the rulebook does not say you CAN, than you CAN'T." You are most probably left to deal with 4 tires to cope with.

    MattP
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:350


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    02 Sep 2010 07:44 AM

    snaponbob wrote:
    Since all classes "build" on "lower" classes, and there is no wording that says 6 wheels are allowed, then they probably aren't. "If the rulebook does not say you CAN, than you CAN'T." You are most probably left to deal with 4 tires to cope with.

    Not true, Mod and Prepared stand alone, don't work like the whole Stock->SP->SM progression.

    I think you're probably good to go (one caveat). Adding 2 more wheels is certainly 'in excess', and the solo rules only limit you to less than 4 wheels, not more:

    [quote]

    12.1 AUTOMOBILE (CAR)
    An automobile or car is a self-propelled land vehicle, running on at least
    four wheels, not in a line, which must be in contact with the ground
    when at rest.


    However, the wording of the specials rules seems to assume only 4 wheels in the 'no karts' line:

    [quote]18.4.5. All four wheels will be sprung from the chassis.

    Maybe it should read 'all wheels'?

    amaff
    Basic Member
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    Posts:306


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    02 Sep 2010 08:13 AM
    MattP wrote:

    snaponbob wrote:
    Since all classes "build" on "lower" classes, and there is no wording that says 6 wheels are allowed, then they probably aren't. "If the rulebook does not say you CAN, than you CAN'T." You are most probably left to deal with 4 tires to cope with.

    Not true, Mod and Prepared stand alone, don't work like the whole Stock->SP->SM progression.

    This^^ I'd like to see what the "Progression" from stock to a true AM or BM would be.

    MattP wrote:
    However, the wording of the specials rules seems to assume only 4 wheels in the 'no karts' line:

    [quote]18.4.5. All four wheels will be sprung from the chassis.

    Maybe it should read 'all wheels'?

    Sounds like Scootin needs to write a letter :). I'd be interested in seeing something that outlandish :D

    Scootin159
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:183


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    02 Sep 2010 08:19 AM

    I too was curious about 18.4.5 - it's obvious that it assumes only 4 wheels, but does it really DICTATE 4 and only 4 wheels? If more than 4 wheels are allowed, then I agree, it should say "all wheels". If only 4 wheels are allowed (which in the current rules it seems is only weakly implied, not explicit), then it should be added to the rules somewhere.

    Based on 12.1 though, it seems I should be good to go. Which then raises the question - would the added traction of four driven wheels (pardon the pun) outweigh the penalty of the added weight of two full rear axles? Would this also induce unworkable understeer into the car? I imagine if you can keep your weight distribution rearward enough, it very well may be an improvement on the current status-quo...

    Phantom
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:153


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    02 Sep 2010 02:10 PM

    As an active AM competitor, I will say bring it on. Unlike other mod classes where most active competitors are constantly worried about a new concept car rendering their vehicles worthless. AM is the class where we would like to see new concepts, new ideas and new cars built. That is why there is minimal rules retrictions in place. I see no where in the rule book saying AM cars can only have 4 tires maximum.

    Having said the above, I don't know if the idea of two rear axles with 4 tires is the way to go, at least I don't think I would go that route. I would consider driving the existing 4 tires before venturing into the concept of using two rear axles. Adding axle and two wheels and tires would add significant weight, increase wheelbase and polar moment. Driving the existing front tires should be lighter, but it is still easier said than done. Packaging a 4 wheel drive AM car can get complicated. If electric motors are allowed (current rulebooks states only internal combustion engines are allowed), then it might be easier to drive the front wheels with a second electric motor.

    Joe

    Dave Hardy
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:851


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    02 Sep 2010 02:23 PM
    Phantom wrote:

    As an active AM competitor, I will say bring it on. Unlike other mod classes where most active competitors are constantly worried about a new concept car rendering their vehicles worthless. AM is the class where we would like to see new concepts, new ideas and new cars built. That is why there is minimal rules retrictions in place. I see no where in the rule book saying AM cars can only have 4 tires maximum.

    Having said the above, I don't know if the idea of two rear axles with 4 tires is the way to go, at least I don't think I would go that route. I would consider driving the existing 4 tires before venturing into the concept of using two rear axles. Adding axle and two wheels and tires would add significant weight, increase wheelbase and polar moment. Driving the existing front tires should be lighter, but it is still easier said than done. Packaging a 4 wheel drive AM car can get complicated. If electric motors are allowed (current rulebooks states only internal combustion engines are allowed), then it might be easier to drive the front wheels with a second electric motor.

    Joe

    Joe -

    Is there resistance to electric A-Mods, or is it just that nobody has pushed for it yet?

    JBrettHowell
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:


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    02 Sep 2010 02:28 PM
    I'm wondering what 2 parallel locked axles will do to the car's ability to turn. Anyone who has tried to push a car through paddock with a single locked axle (I'm thinking of F500s and some prepared cars) knows that turning the front wheels makes the car significantly harder to push. If the rear axles could be somehow linked to steering so that the distance between the inside rear wheels decreases or the distance between the outside rear wheels increases as the steering wheel is turned, that would probably address my concerns, but again, all that complexity means weight.
    Dave Hardy
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:851


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    02 Sep 2010 02:35 PM

    JBrettHowell wrote:
    I'm wondering what 2 parallel locked axles will do to the car's ability to turn. Anyone who has tried to push a car through paddock with a single locked axle (I'm thinking of F500s and some prepared cars) knows that turning the front wheels makes the car significantly harder to push. If the rear axles could be somehow linked to steering so that the distance between the inside rear wheels decreases or the distance between the outside rear wheels increases as the steering wheel is turned, that would probably address my concerns, but again, all that complexity means weight.

    Trying to turn a twin axle trailer illustrates this concept as well. They suck to turn, and those are wheels that are freewheeling.

    CodeMonkey
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:


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    03 Sep 2010 08:39 PM
    Phantom wrote:

    If electric motors are allowed (current rulebooks states only internal combustion engines are allowed), then it might be easier to drive the front wheels with a second electric motor.

    Joe

    Where in the 2010 rules does it prohibit electric motors in an AM car? I looked in Sections 3, 18.3 and Appendix A for something limiting the engines in AM. Didn't see anything that put a limit them. Hell it seems like 4 electric motors would ROCK as an AM drive train.

    -Mike

    loosecannon
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:872


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    03 Sep 2010 08:55 PM

    I think it would be easier to figure out how to run double-wide rear tires or build an AWD AMod car. Tyrell built the 6 wheel F1 car primarily to take advantage of the better aerodynamics of running small diameter front tires without losing the footprint of the bigger tires.

    Phantom
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:153


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    04 Sep 2010 08:45 PM
    DILYSI Dave wrote:
    Phantom wrote:

    As an active AM competitor, I will say bring it on. Unlike other mod classes where most active competitors are constantly worried about a new concept car rendering their vehicles worthless. AM is the class where we would like to see new concepts, new ideas and new cars built. That is why there is minimal rules retrictions in place. I see no where in the rule book saying AM cars can only have 4 tires maximum.

    Having said the above, I don't know if the idea of two rear axles with 4 tires is the way to go, at least I don't think I would go that route. I would consider driving the existing 4 tires before venturing into the concept of using two rear axles. Adding axle and two wheels and tires would add significant weight, increase wheelbase and polar moment. Driving the existing front tires should be lighter, but it is still easier said than done. Packaging a 4 wheel drive AM car can get complicated. If electric motors are allowed (current rulebooks states only internal combustion engines are allowed), then it might be easier to drive the front wheels with a second electric motor.

    Joe

    Joe -

    Is there resistance to electric A-Mods, or is it just that nobody has pushed for it yet?

    I don't believe there is resistance to electric cars in AM (or other classes for that matter). I also believe SEB is looking into the possibility and wordings for future rulebooks in officially allowing them.

    Joe

    Phantom
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:153


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    04 Sep 2010 08:50 PM
    Mike Shields wrote:
    Phantom wrote:

    If electric motors are allowed (current rulebooks states only internal combustion engines are allowed), then it might be easier to drive the front wheels with a second electric motor.

    Joe

    Where in the 2010 rules does it prohibit electric motors in an AM car? I looked in Sections 3, 18.3 and Appendix A for something limiting the engines in AM. Didn't see anything that put a limit them. Hell it seems like 4 electric motors would ROCK as an AM drive train.

    -Mike

    I don't have the exact page in the rulebook, but it does mention in one of the sections that only hydrocarbon fuel is allowed. This means officially, an electric car is no allowed. If someone has a copy of the rulebook and can find that section, please post it. Thank you.

    Joe

    Lynn
    Veteran Member
    Veteran Member
    Posts:2522


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    05 Sep 2010 06:36 AM

    3.6 FUEL

    A. Stock and Street Touring category vehicles will use service station pump fuel only. Pump fuel is defined as that which is “Federally ap- proved for use on public highways.” This includes the pump fuel known as E85, but does not allow racing-type fuels which are avail- able at service station pumps. 

    B. In addition to fuels which are allowed by 3.6.A, Street Prepared, Street Modified, Prepared, and Modified category vehicles may use diesel fuel or any grade of gasoline. Gasolines consist entirely of hydrocarbon compounds. Gasoline may contain antioxidants, metal deactivators, corrosion inhibitors, and lead alkyl compounds such as tetraethyl lead. Oxygen and/or nitrogen bearing additives are prohib- ited except for those originally present in service station pump fuel. Oxygen and/or nitrogen bearing oil additives are prohibited in two- cycle engine oiling systems.

    C. Propane or CNG (compressed natural gas) fuel may be used in any category provided that the following conditions are met:

    1. The tank must be located in a safe location on the car, and be firm- ly and securely mounted. This does not permit the cutting of ve- hicle sheet metal, e.g. the trunk floor, for tank installation in Stock, Street Touring, Street Prepared, or Street Modified categories.

    2. The tank must conform to Federal and local container standards and have an emergency relief/cut-off control.

    3. For use of propane or CNG as fuel, no changes to the induction system of the engine may be made with the exception of the nec- essary fuel lines to the carburetor or fuel injection. There may also be no other engine parts changed.

    4. The entire system must meet local ordinances covering the use and transmission of compressed gas.

    5. Propane or CNG may not be used in combination with another fuel.

    Robert Puertas
    Advanced Member
    Advanced Member
    Posts:761


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    05 Sep 2010 09:14 AM

    The Tesla has been classed in stock.

    It would be a little silly if it was legal for SS but not Amod.

    I'm guessing there's some work to be done on the rulebook to deal with cars like the Tesla in SP and SM, but I would think batteries and their not inconsiderable mass are still the limiting factor for an electric Mod car.

    TravisD
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:238


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    05 Sep 2010 01:51 PM

    Robert Puertas wrote:
    but I would think batteries and their not inconsiderable mass are still the limiting factor for an electric Mod car.

    You can lose a lot of that mass when you only need to go a few miles at a time.

    Would they still need a fire extinguisher present if they wanted to "refuel" (swap battery backs) in grid?

    lightning
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:


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    06 Sep 2010 04:52 AM

    Traction control would be the issue with an electric AM car. Traction control systems are prohibited in AM. Building an electric car without some kind of traction control or an feed back system would almost defeat the real advantages of an electric car. Of course the traction control rule can be changed. That would add some expense to our existing cars.

    Stanley

    redwhale240
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:310


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    08 Sep 2010 12:09 PM
    Phantom wrote:
    Mike Shields wrote:
    Phantom wrote:

    If electric motors are allowed (current rulebooks states only internal combustion engines are allowed), then it might be easier to drive the front wheels with a second electric motor.

    Joe

    Where in the 2010 rules does it prohibit electric motors in an AM car? I looked in Sections 3, 18.3 and Appendix A for something limiting the engines in AM. Didn't see anything that put a limit them. Hell it seems like 4 electric motors would ROCK as an AM drive train.

    -Mike

    I don't have the exact page in the rulebook, but it does mention in one of the sections that only hydrocarbon fuel is allowed. This means officially, an electric car is no allowed. If someone has a copy of the rulebook and can find that section, please post it. Thank you.

    Joe

    Coal and naturalgas are hydrocarbons. Does that mean an electric motor powered car running on batteries could only be charged by an outlet that is supplied with electricity from a coal or natural gas powered power plant?[6]

    racingfool
    Basic Member
    Basic Member
    Posts:177


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    08 Sep 2010 07:50 PM
    redwhale240 wrote:
    could only be charged by an outlet that is supplied with electricity from a coal or natural gas powered power plant?

    Or a gasoline powered generator?
    rrobb
    New Member
    New Member
    Posts:


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    09 Sep 2010 07:57 AM

    How about we just get a clarification of the rules instead of resorting to streched interpertations.

    Cory

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