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Last Post 21 Dec 2017 01:29 PM by  snakebit8
Move E36 M3 to STX?
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Hank
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21 Sep 2010 11:07 AM
Do the STX competitors believe that an ST car won this year because of a course dependency?
sjrife
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21 Sep 2010 11:11 AM

Hank wrote:
Do the STX competitors believe that an ST car won this year because of a course dependency?

I was an STX driver, albeit a very slow one. I believe that Mr. Hollis was the best driver those two days and that a few of the BMW drivers could have won if they were on their A+ game.

Dave OH
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21 Sep 2010 11:12 AM

Meh. I think the STU M3's need to at least come CLOSE to matching STX 325/328 times before they can actually complain about their cars being outgunned in STU.

Fastest STU BMW... 3.1s slower than fastest STX BMW...


Hank
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21 Sep 2010 11:17 AM
Dave OH wrote:

Meh. I think the STU M3's need to at least come CLOSE to matching STX 325/328 times before they can actually complain about their cars being outgunned in STU.

Fastest STU BMW... 3.1s slower than fastest STX BMW...


The fastest STU M3 drivers stayed home, or decided to drive something else. Check the results of STU for the past couple of years and you will see why.

Shinny
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21 Sep 2010 11:36 AM
This seems to be a circular argument. There will always be a car that's perfect for a class. At nationals where everyone is driving on that edge it comes down to the car. Just because the car you picked isn't fastest doesn't mean it should be moved to another class. If you can't buy the most competitive car that's what co-drivings for. Drive yours locally and HAVE FUN with it. The attitude about nationals is why I'm going to set my CRX to run both auto and rally x instead of being nationally competitive
Shinny
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21 Sep 2010 11:36 AM

Dave OH
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21 Sep 2010 11:38 AM

Hank wrote:
Dave OH wrote:

Meh. I think the STU M3's need to at least come CLOSE to matching STX 325/328 times before they can actually complain about their cars being outgunned in STU.

Fastest STU BMW... 3.1s slower than fastest STX BMW...


The fastest STU M3 drivers stayed home, or decided to drive something else. Check the results of STU for the past couple of years and you will see why.

Like 2009? Where Bryce was faster in the 328 than the fastest STU M3, or 2008? Where Chris Conant in his E30 M3 was ~even with the fastest STU M3?

jhunter
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21 Sep 2010 11:57 AM
Hank wrote:

Since a ST car won STX this year, maybe it's time to consider moving the E36 M3 to STX? Didn't the ST car prove that the leading STX cars are too slow?

What about the rest of STU, since a STS CRX raw timed them on the east course, and would have been 5th overall? Heck the STS Miata (not even fully developed) would have been 4th overall in STU, and would have won STX and ST. STU and STX are supposed to be faster then STS, right?

Your logic is flawed. We all understand that an E36 M3 is probably not going to win STU. Honestly, I think the ST civics should not be allowed to bump up into STX, where they could have a possible advantage. The classes aren't about which is faster. It is more about a type of car. A fully prepped E36 M3 WILL be faster then a fully prepped E36 325/328. No ifs, ands, or buts. It will be an overdog to the rest of the class.

Hank
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21 Sep 2010 01:15 PM
Dave OH wrote:

Hank wrote:
Dave OH wrote:

Meh. I think the STU M3's need to at least come CLOSE to matching STX 325/328 times before they can actually complain about their cars being outgunned in STU.

Fastest STU BMW... 3.1s slower than fastest STX BMW...


The fastest STU M3 drivers stayed home, or decided to drive something else. Check the results of STU for the past couple of years and you will see why.

Like 2009? Where Bryce was faster in the 328 than the fastest STU M3, or 2008? Where Chris Conant in his E30 M3 was ~even with the fastest STU M3?

You have to look further back. Most of the nationally competitive M3's stopped going after 2007.

Hank
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21 Sep 2010 01:26 PM

jhunter wrote:

A fully prepped E36 M3 WILL be faster then a fully prepped E36 325/328. No ifs, ands, or buts. It will be an overdog to the rest of the class.

I question if the E36 M3 would be an overdog. I expect that the RX8 will continue to improve and that it is just a matter of time until the 325/328 is not competitive.

One of the following should be true:

1. The ST cars should be prevented from running in STX if they are going to be faster.

2. Faster cars should be allowed into STX to keep it ahead of ST.

I have NO INTEREST in turning STX into a spec-M3 class. However, I would like to see a ST* class where the M3 has A CHANCE to compete. There are a lot of M3's out there just waiting for the SCCA to class it properly. IMO, STX seems like it might be a good fit.

If a ST reorg is coming, it can't come fast enough.

splash
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21 Sep 2010 01:28 PM

So now your logic is that we haven't seen M3's for 3 years, their drivers either stay home or drive something else, and we're supposed to upset the applecart of a very successful class to make whomever is left happy?

Does that about sum it up?

I know a way to make STX faster than ST... Move the EVO and STi there... (and even that won't work 100% of the time)

cbailey
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21 Sep 2010 01:33 PM
Hank wrote:
cbailey wrote:

I find it marginally amusing when several people who don't run STX come out and say "STX is too slow" when they really mean, "I am driving too slow for STU but might feel better going slow in STX."

This is just flame bait and I should resist, but... You might have no idea who I am and to assume that "I am driving too slow for STU" is ridiculous. I understand that drivers in STX will come to the defense of cars in that class, but your assumptions are just silly.

Well, if you can muster the courage to skip over the part where I insult you by making gross hyperbolic assumptions about your self-centered intentions, you'll see that I am actually making an argument concerning the popularity of the STX class as it sits and why it doesn't make sense to add any faster cars at present.

I'll rephrase my previous post so as to engender less hostility and more clearly communicate my point:

You, Hank, are an amazing driver and person. I wish that all STX drivers were as intelligent and refined as you. If so, we would likely have chosen M3's, too! [:D] However, STX is overwhelmingly popular in it's current form, and as such I feel that it would behoove the SCCA to strongly consider leaving the class alone and simply using a restricted list of allowed vehicles similar to STR to foster the diverse competition that STX currently allows, including several forms of BMW that would immediately be outclassed by the M3. I urge you, Hank, to reconsider your well-founded opinion and consider how many people might be made unhappy or negatively affected financially were we to support your request regarding the M3. Thanks for considering the rest of us, and drive fast!

The Nebulizer
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21 Sep 2010 01:42 PM

I think it is clear that now is not the time for a move to STX. But, I anticipate we will see some new classing for the M3s in the reorg proposal that achieve an equally satisfying solution - a class essentially between STX and STU.

a few points:

- the best M3 drivers were not at nationals (and for a reason). I was the 27th place STU driver in the e46 M3 (the fastest e46 M3 ever in STU [:P] ). I am pretty good and had good runs, but I'd guess just outside of trophy material had I driven as well in a STi/Evo. The best estimates from owners of both put e46 M3 about 1.5sec slower (at national length course) than the Evo/STi in back to back testing - greatly depending on course and weather (which only make things worse - never better).

- many top drivers were prepping M3s a couple years ago and abandoned the projects when it became clear the M3 could not get it done in STU. I know of several top level drivers (I assume better than me) that are now in other vehicles/classes (Mayfield, Fair, Pomeranke, Pounds, Bear, Irish, Orgeron to name a few). And, others I don't know like the OP of this thread (and a guy in SD I have heard of) that are simply staying home. I think the numbers are there if the class existed. The M3 is too much fun to be classed out of competition.

- despite what was posted above, the 22nd place e36 M3 was fully prepped. It was the same car that got a lower trophy in 2009 for STU with M. Bear driving. It is a team owned vehicle that has had extensive testing. I am not familiar with the drivers, but I believe the higher finishing co-driver was pretty solid (i.e. trophy threat had he been in a STi/Evo). And, my e46 M3 is as well prepped as any in the country (only needs lighter seats, no sunroof, and a driver that can tune it better than just copying everyone else).

- there is general agreement in the BMW world from what I have read that the e36 M3 is if anything the better STU prepped M3 due to lower weight and size compared to the e46 M3. (I mention this as so far only e36 M3 has been discussed and I think any classing should include both e36 and e46 M3s). I am also not sure the e90/e92 M3 will be any faster as it is even heavier still and has more unusable power. I don't currently fear the e90/e92 M3 in ST trim (but I have no actual experience - just speculating).

STX is a very healthy class nationally. I believe the 2nd largest class. No need to make any changes to this class and certainly not right before a reorg is coming. The better option in my opinion is to lock down classes (ST eligible cars can't run STX etc. - in other words, make ST* inclusion classes) and create a class between current STX and STU where cars like the e36&e46 M3s, Mazdaspeed3, S4, IS350, 300zx, 350z, 370Z, G37, SRT4, C4, SRT6, Camaro 5.7, V8 mustang, GT500, 2003+ supercharged Cobra, XKR, IS-F, Espirit, turbo RX-7, Mercedes Benz C32 & C63 AMG, CLK55, SLK32 AMG (2002-04), SLK350, SLK55, Mini JCW, Firebird, trans am, GTO, supra, s60R, etc. can go. I am anticipating something similar to both of these options will be detailed very shortly in the reorganization proposal.

I think the interest is there if the STAC decide to make an STX/STU tween class. There are other cars currently unclassed and the M3s are getting downright cheap. And, there are a lot of people waiting and hoping for the M3 to be well classed. The M3 is so much fun to drive (and challenging), I hope it has a good place to play in the future in ST*.

Hank
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21 Sep 2010 03:34 PM

I will skip over Chris' post because it is clear that he just wishes to turn this into mud-slinging...

The original question was based on the fact that a ST-prepped car won STX. If ST-prepped cars are capable AND ALLOWED to run in STX, something needs to change. Having a dog in the fight (actually a dog waiting to fight), I asked if it is the right time to consider adding the E36 M3 to STX in an attempt to get STX faster than ST. I didn't want to turn this into a "STU is broken" discussion. We have beat that dead horse.

I wonder how many of the STX drivers-that-I-pisssed-off with this question would also be upset if a group of the ST drivers decided to run in STX all next year?!

rp1
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21 Sep 2010 03:47 PM
Hank wrote:

Most M3s, including mine, stayed home because they have no chance in the current STU class. My thinking is that a STU M3 is only marginally faster than the current crop of 325/328 cars in STX.

Put Neal in his car in STU and you'll see that with a good driver, a 325is could place well in STU. If an M3 is "marginally" faster, then by this deduction, an M3 should do relatively well Nationally in STU, if not outright be able to keep up and win against the boost buggies.

At Blytheville, Eric Sienkiewicz would have placed 2nd in STU in a 325is

At San Diego, Derek Punch would have placed 4th (T) in STU (and less than 5 hundredths back from 2nd place)

At Texas, Jerry Irvine would have placed 4th (T) in STU (and that was on a pretty long set of courses by the look of the times)

At Dixue, Eric Sienkiewicz would have won STU outright by over a second

At Nationals Hollis would have gotten 4th in STU in an ST car and Neal Tovsen would have gotten 7th

The M3 belongs in STU despite no-one has won or has done well in one Nationally in the last two years (besides Tin Bui in SD). I believe it will be overclassed in anything between STX and STU. Let's be honest, most people do not want to race around getting their butts kicked for 11 months just to have a shot on concrete at Blytheville, Peru and Lincoln. I know I wouldn't. It's just a shame that at the one place the E36 M3s do have a shot, all the really well prepared cars didn't show up.

Do you want to class the car by Nationals results, National Tour results or regular season results?

mwood
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21 Sep 2010 05:48 PM
splash wrote:

Are you suggesting a single AWD class to encompass everything from an Impreza RS to an EVO? Or do you want a separate set of AWD classes to go along with the set of 2WD classes?


Two: STA-1 (Evo, STi) and STA-2 (everything else). How's that sound?

cbailey
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21 Sep 2010 06:19 PM
Hank wrote:

I will skip over Chris' post because it is clear that he just wishes to turn this into mud-slinging...

The original question was based on the fact that a ST-prepped car won STX. If ST-prepped cars are capable AND ALLOWED to run in STX, something needs to change. Having a dog in the fight (actually a dog waiting to fight), I asked if it is the right time to consider adding the E36 M3 to STX in an attempt to get STX faster than ST. I didn't want to turn this into a "STU is broken" discussion. We have beat that dead horse.

I wonder how many of the STX drivers-that-I-pisssed-off with this question would also be upset if a group of the ST drivers decided to run in STX all next year?!

Civics ran in STX all this year and last year at least. How would you feel if they ran STU and crushed all the M3's running there? That's why rulesmakers are already discussing options. (None of which involve the M3 in STX which is probably not the best available option.)

Also, yes, an ST-prepped Civic won STX, but an STX-prepped Civic (8-inch wheels!) only took 3rd. Maybe we should assume that STX mods make cars slower?

Sarcasm aside, I'd actually agree the M3 is overclassed in STU, and I would not oppose it having a competitive place to play if something akin to Jason's proposal were brought up. He's clearly put a fair amount of thought into some possibilities which would be worth considering.

redwhale240
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21 Sep 2010 06:46 PM

Hank wrote:

I would like to see a ST* class where the M3 has A CHANCE to compete.

I was waiting for that to come out. This is purely an I Class debate, and because you have an M3 doesn't mean the car should be shuffled.

splash
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21 Sep 2010 08:55 PM
mwood wrote:

Two: STA-1 (Evo, STi) and STA-2 (everything else). How's that sound?

Like you've at least given it some thought...

Though, using the same logic, you could likely have STF-1 (Civic) and STF-2 (everything else FWD), then STR-1 (M3 and RX8) and STR-2 (everything else RWD)



justint5387
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21 Sep 2010 09:05 PM

I was working when STU ran at the 2010 nationals. None of the M3s were well driven, I can see seconds being gain with a top level driver.

Didn't the E36 finish higher than RX8 when they both were in STU?

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