PrevPrev Go to previous topic
NextNext Go to next topic
Last Post 21 Dec 2017 01:29 PM by  snakebit8
Move E36 M3 to STX?
 115 Replies
Sort:
You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 5 of 6 << < 23456 > >>
Author Messages
rp1
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:219


--
23 Sep 2010 12:27 PM

Hank wrote:
To be clear, I meant rolling to the point that each car can fit there maximum tire size. Are there cars other than the E36 that have trouble fitting their allowed maximum?

As a thought exercise, if someone wanted to run a BMW 2002 in STX, allowing the "rolling of fenders to allow for the maximum allowed tire size" would be tantamount to fully flaring fenders. This is one of the few rules that, as much as I would hate to spend the money, I would love the option to fit full 265 width tires in STX (or 285 in STU) under my fenders without risk of destroying them.

Chiketkd
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
23 Sep 2010 12:37 PM

John V wrote:
If someone is concerned about rolling fenders due to resale value, they probably shouldn't be autocrossing.

Agreed.

Hank wrote:
To be clear, I meant rolling to the point that each car can fit there maximum tire size. Are there cars other than the E36 that have trouble fitting their allowed maximum?
There are many cars out there (especially fwd).

I know most STX BMWs either have to run serious camber and/or perfect offset wheels to get 265's to fit. Being able to flare or pull the fenders will definitley help them reduce rubbing. IIRC, other cars like the IS300 have problems fitting the max allowed width in STX. There not many competitive cars in STU that could benefit from this, but I've been told that cars like the Pontiac GTO and Pontiac G8 aren't able to run 285's in STU (not that you'd want to run either of these cars in STU or autocross for that matter).

fsmtnbiker
New Member
New Member
Posts:19


--
28 Sep 2010 11:50 AM

Chiketkd wrote:
I know most STX BMWs either have to run serious camber and/or perfect offset wheels to get 265's to fit. Being able to flare or pull the fenders will definitley help them reduce rubbing. IIRC, other cars like the IS300 have problems fitting the max allowed width in STX. There not many competitive cars in STU that could benefit from this, but I've been told that cars like the Pontiac GTO and Pontiac G8 aren't able to run 285's in STU (not that you'd want to run either of these cars in STU or autocross for that matter).

I know the STAC/SEB are totally against making 1-car rules, and I can understand that. In this case, I think it would immediately help the E36 M3 but could also open up other potential options that, when fitted with larger rubber, could also be class-competitive.

Fitting 265's or larger is very close on any E36. My Sedan actually seems to have a touch more room in a couple key spots than some coupes I've worked on, but overall they're pretty much the same. With 18" wheels you can run a little higher offset wheel depending on what and where the rubbing is. I was able to achieve my usual alignment (-2 camber, 3/16" total toe-in) on any of the wheel and tire combos that I ran on my car, from 17x9/255 to 18x10/285. The 265 Dunlops on 18x9 SSR's fit great, and didn't rub anywhere.. but I also tend to run a stiffer spring than most people like for a mixed-use car. (I'm still young enough that the ride isn't harsh, it's sporty!)

The earlier E36 325s seem a little tighter on fender clearance than the M3's I've worked on, not sure if it's just a fluke or not.

My main problem with the current ST* fender rolling rule is that it doesn't allow you to roll your fenders in the traditional sense of 'rolling', which is to go get the commonly available, hub mounted fender roller, and roll your fenders - this device relies on pushing outward on the fender and will always change the 'contour' or whatever we're calling it now. The only way to be truly within the rules is to use a hammer, and RUIN the paint. Obviously within the spirit of the class.

*grumble*

I remember now why Street Mod was so appealing this season! Lots of money? Yes. Rules? Not many!

splash
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:960


--
28 Sep 2010 12:28 PM
I used the exact roller you describe and a heat gun so the paint would stretch with the fender lip. I still have the stock fender contour. The idea is to make many passes, and to not be a gorilla about it.
Chiketkd
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
28 Sep 2010 12:54 PM

splash wrote:
I used the exact roller you describe and a heat gun so the paint would stretch with the fender lip. I still have the stock fender contour. The idea is to make many passes, and to not be a gorilla about it.

Don't you have a '04 or '05 STi? It's a lot easier "stretch" the paint on a 5 or 6 year old car, than it is on a 11-15 year old car. I've seen the outer layers of paint literally flake off the fenders during a "careful & slow" fender roll on a mid 90's M3.

splash
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:960


--
28 Sep 2010 02:15 PM

Heck it could just be Subaru's thin paint ... We did an '02 WRX the same way and it cracked and flaked like mad, while my STi didn't do it at all, and the only difference was the heat gun. It was even the same blue color...

I was speaking more to the "contour" issue. With those rollers, you start by pressing up, then out. If you're not in a hurry, it just folds up nicely and you don't have to use the kind of force that turns it into a fender pulling...

mholzi@aol.com
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:524


--
28 Sep 2010 07:41 PM
splash:

Are you suggesting a single AWD class to encompass everything from an Impreza RS to an EVO? Or do you want a separate set of AWD classes to go along with the set of 2WD classes?


Two: STA-1 (Evo, STi) and STA-2 (everything else). How's that sound?

I agree with AWD classes. The high for the WRX at nationals was 17 cars, this year only 8 came to nationals, with the highest finish of 16th. The WRX #ers will continue to go down unless something is done (tire size or different class). It would be a shame to lose the WRX.

90 Miata STS 03 WRX STX 04 SVT Focus GS Iowa Region RE Click on the TireRack banner on the IowaRegionSCCA.org website for all your tire needs.
fsmtnbiker
New Member
New Member
Posts:19


--
28 Sep 2010 09:24 PM

splash wrote:
I used the exact roller you describe and a heat gun so the paint would stretch with the fender lip. I still have the stock fender contour. The idea is to make many passes, and to not be a gorilla about it.

You imply that you did not change the outer fender contour *at all* ? I'm talking, not even .001" of change?

Oh, maybe a few thousandths? Where do you draw the line?

My point is that to legally extract every available bit from the rules now, requires you to use a hammer. There's no way you can roll the inner fender lip totally flush with a fender roller without exerting enough strain on the whole fender to change it's overall shape. I've rolled lots of fenders, I work at a shop that specializes in that kind of stuff.

It's really a moot point, I'll just wait and see what 2012 brings.

rp1
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:219


--
28 Sep 2010 09:31 PM
mholzi@aol.com wrote:
splash:

Are you suggesting a single AWD class to encompass everything from an Impreza RS to an EVO? Or do you want a separate set of AWD classes to go along with the set of 2WD classes?

Two: STA-1 (Evo, STi) and STA-2 (everything else). How's that sound?

I agree with AWD classes. The high for the WRX at nationals was 17 cars, this year only 8 came to nationals, with the highest finish of 16th. The WRX #ers will continue to go down unless something is done (tire size or different class). It would be a shame to lose the WRX.

If as the E36s and RX-8s (and what ever else shows itself to be quick in STX) continue to progress in speed, I would love to see the AWD contingent get 255s to bring some of the WRXs back into the mix.

splash
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:960


--
29 Sep 2010 06:12 AM

I look at it this way, if I can't measure the change after the rolling, you won't be able to measure it if you protested me for it...

piknockout
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:323


--
29 Sep 2010 07:20 AM
Using the fender roller, even if it changes by a bit, as long as it's within the factory tolerances then you're good. I would wager that using a fender roller would still keep it within those tolerances.
The Nebulizer
Veteran Member
Veteran Member
Posts:1819


--
29 Sep 2010 08:37 AM

If they allow fender flaring then they need to continue regulating wheel and tire size. I am guessing that is going away with the reorg. There should be no reason to continue to restrict certain cars by tire size to balance things within a class when classes will be based on performance. If a car is too fast or slow for a class there is no need to adjust tire restrictions, just move it to a new class. I would be against flaring as a principle since it really does damage a car. Perhaps not a big deal on a 20+ year old car (though I think differently), but certainly a big deal if this should be necessary for a newer car.

I think we are discussing issues that may very well be irrelevant in a couple weeks though.

Chiketkd
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
29 Sep 2010 09:21 AM

rp1 wrote:
If as the E36s and RX-8s (and what ever else shows itself to be quick in STX) continue to progress in speed, I would love to see the AWD contingent get 255s to bring some of the WRXs back into the mix.

Since awd cars are limited to 245's in STU, I don't see that happening unless the STU awd tire limit gets increased as well.

Personally, what I'd like to see in the re-org for STX are similar tire limits, but no wheel limits. So a STX WRX can run a 245 tire on a 9.0" wheel.

rp1
Basic Member
Basic Member
Posts:219


--
29 Sep 2010 09:54 AM
Chiketkd wrote:

rp1 wrote:
If as the E36s and RX-8s (and what ever else shows itself to be quick in STX) continue to progress in speed, I would love to see the AWD contingent get 255s to bring some of the WRXs back into the mix.

Since awd cars are limited to 245's in STU, I don't see that happening unless the STU awd tire limit gets increased as well.

Personally, what I'd like to see in the re-org for STX are similar tire limits, but no wheel limits. So a STX WRX can run a 245 tire on a 9.0" wheel.

As part of moving away from the concept that "STU is faster than STX" and towards "All the cars in STX are of similar performance. All the cars in STU are of similar performance", the tire limit of STU doesn't matter...as long as 245 is still appropriate for the AWD cars in STU. As for the tire / wheel limit, while I am mostly in agreement with you, the thought of buying new rims for my car makes my wallet ache as I would go with wider wheels and keep running 255 / 265 width tires.

splash
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:960


--
29 Sep 2010 10:14 AM

In an ideal world, ST as a category should have unified rules across the whole class structure within. I would continue to allow lip rolling (within OE contour specs) but no flaring or pulling, and then allow whatever wheel/tire fits. After that, class accordingly. Treat the fenders as 'sacred' and the wheel/tire limits will control themselves. If a given car is advantaged or disadvantaged, move it up or down a class.

The same would be true of exhaust/cat/emissions. The same rules across the board, class accordingly.

That said, I can see where that could be a LOT of work, perhaps too much work for the re-org already planned. As it is, I think it will end up being a lot like Prepared is today, where some rules are category wide, but some are also class-specific.

IntrigueGX
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:997


--
29 Sep 2010 10:44 AM

STX is overrun with moved up ST cars. Most of the "STX" BMWs are ST cars. A clutch-pack LSD was only standard on the E30 M3 and 325is--and the E30 325is was more of an option package on a E30 325i anyway. The rest of the BMWs came with an open differential and the factory LSD option was not even available after 1994 for the 325 and never on the 323/328/330/etc. These BMWs are no more or less in STX than a Civic.

FWIW: I just bought one of those optional factory LSDs for my 325i. :)

splash
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:960


--
29 Sep 2010 11:08 AM

I'm not sure what the point of all that was, but NONE of the STX BMW's are legal for ST like Andy's Civic was. Even the black STX Civic had 15x8 front wheels for its 225 tires. You'd also have to be aware of any relocated cats and longer-tube headers, as that would turn a ST car into a "honest" STX car as well.

I think the point others were making concerned ST-legal cars poaching trophies in STX. It's quite possible STR could have had something similar happen with a STS-legal car.

murph1379
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:627


--
03 Oct 2010 08:34 PM
I'm sure I missed a similar point from someone else, but the re-org is coming, everyone knows it. Making a place for the E36 and E46 M3s in ST* will be a good idea for the SCCA, just a matter of what else will compete with them. I elect the RX-8 their punchin, er, competition... :P
Chiketkd
New Member
New Member
Posts:


--
04 Oct 2010 08:46 AM

murph1379 wrote:
I'm sure I missed a similar point from someone else, but the re-org is coming, everyone knows it. Making a place for the E36 and E46 M3s in ST* will be a good idea for the SCCA, just a matter of what else will compete with them. I elect the RX-8 their punchin, er, competition... :P

While it would be a great thing to give these M sedans a place to play, there's no reason to kill the RX-8 off in ST* to do it. These classes are popular and well-subscribed and there would be good justification for the STAC to create a new class for them.

FWIW, the RX-8 hasn't been proven (yet???) to be any faster in ST* trim than a E36 325/328.

murph1379
Advanced Member
Advanced Member
Posts:627


--
04 Oct 2010 02:26 PM

lol, I know Chike, just messin' with ya. ;)

But then, what happens when the RX-8 is allowed to run whatever tire they can fit? I know I'd pick an RX-8 on 285s over an E36 on 265s. But then the ZHP could be on 285s as well... mmm.... :)

You are not authorized to post a reply.
Page 5 of 6 << < 23456 > >>


Woodhouse Motorsports SPS 88x31 Button
G-Loc Button Vorshlag 88x31 Button
Mooresport Button Sunoco 88x31 Button

Advertise on SCCAForums.com and reach thousands of visitors per day!

SafeRacer FREE SHIPPING over $99

Shop for Pirelli tires at Tire Rack. blank



Sunoco Bottom 468x60 Banner