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Last Post 23 Jan 2001 06:41 PM by  Ken Grammer
Road Racing evolution...
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Peter Olivola
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10 Jan 2001 04:58 AM
The rule requiring all national classes be run at a full regional exists to provide a transition from drivers school to regional to national without having to change equipment.

The negative impact on the national program from limiting those classes to nationals only would be devastating. It will cut entries dramatically and endanger the entire program.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl Bocchieri:
[b]As an ITS racer I agree there are too many groups and you dont get enough time to set up your car, and if there are incidents on track your race gets cut even shorter. I know this will get some people crazy but I think regional races should be for regional only cars. If you have a national eligible car go race in national races. If your noncompetative so what, race in the back or get faster. The IT fields in the northeast are huge and could support this. I think you could let AS stay and play in there own group, there just expensive V8 IT cars anyway. Any thing that has 1 seat and no fenders would be sent packing. If not, then I want to race my car at national events.
Just my thoughts, sorry if I offend anyone.

[/b]
racer-john
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10 Jan 2001 07:50 AM
Peter,
I agree that regional racing should provide a path to higher levels of racing. The problem is that our most popular class, IT doesn't provide that path. Its almost like the national crowd has kept IT at a regional level only to keep the "rifraf" out. The impression at the national level is that IT is just a bunch of junk yard refugees crashing into each other. Nothing could be further from the truth! I've said it before and now you can all trash me on this board, phase out the old and diminishing production classes and replace the with a modified IT class. By modified I mean let IT remove headlights, glass and the crap that dosen't cost alot to do and makes the cars faster. IT guys that don't want to modify can continue to race on a regioal level the way they are. For the Prod guys that are just too far gone to go back give them big carbs and open brakes and put them in GT. With this we eliminat a race group and provide the much needed opprotunity for IT drivers to race at the national level.
Max Lake
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10 Jan 2001 08:14 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by racer-john:
[b],
phase out the old and diminishing production classes and replace the with a modified IT class. By modified I mean let IT remove headlights, glass and the crap that dosen't cost alot to do and makes the cars faster. [/b]


Most IT cars can upgade to production with little trouble.
racer-john
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10 Jan 2001 08:32 AM
Max,
This is a common misconception. I did it and to be competitive it will cost you big $. First you thow away all the wheels you have and tires. Cut the fenders off, buy $1000 worth of carbs or a $1400 engine management system, not to mention a $5k motor, slicks that last one or two races. 3-5 $k for a transmission. Your new fenders are custome made and cost $250-300 per corner oh and the fuel system I'm at about $2k for that did I mention the $1200 clutch?... Alot more then it would cost to take a current prod car to GT. Prod has alot more in common with GT then IT.
Gordon C
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10 Jan 2001 09:08 AM
I think with the limited prep rules in production, the price for upgrading an IT to a Production will drop. I was in the process of building an 86 CRX si to IT specs, but I'm probably going to build it to the limited prep specs for GP. It will cost more, but at the point I'm at in the project, it's not going being a whole lot more.
racer-john
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10 Jan 2001 09:12 AM
MY car IS a LP car! Do you want to win or just turn laps?

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John W.
EP 2nd. gen Rx-7
Peter Olivola
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10 Jan 2001 09:48 AM
I can understand your frustration, but the reason IT isn't a national class is because showroom stock is and the history of the class(es) is an object lesson in how to make racing at the regional level unnecessarily expensive.

SS started out, like IT, as a regional only class. There was much pressure, much more than anything like the IT pressure, to make it a national class. As soon as they did, the value of a win went up and the willingness to spend foolishly to get that win combined with the efforts of the manufacturers, drove the cost through the roof by comparison.

Making IT a national class falls into the category of be carefull what you wish for, you may get it (and I guarantee you won't like the results.)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by racer-john:
[b]Peter,
I agree that regional racing should provide a path to higher levels of racing. The problem is that our most popular class, IT doesn't provide that path. Its almost like the national crowd has kept IT at a regional level only to keep the "rifraf" out. The impression at the national level is that IT is just a bunch of junk yard refugees crashing into each other. Nothing could be further from the truth! I've said it before and now you can all trash me on this board, phase out the old and diminishing production classes and replace the with a modified IT class. By modified I mean let IT remove headlights, glass and the crap that dosen't cost alot to do and makes the cars faster. IT guys that don't want to modify can continue to race on a regioal level the way they are. For the Prod guys that are just too far gone to go back give them big carbs and open brakes and put them in GT. With this we eliminat a race group and provide the much needed opprotunity for IT drivers to race at the national level. [/b]
racer-john
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10 Jan 2001 11:40 AM
Peter,
Again I agree with the fact that "win at any cost" has hurt SS but in SS the guys that have this attitude race mostly nationals and those that don't, race regionaly. I think IT would be the same. As it is now this attitude is out of control in IT. You're from the NE, you've seen the speedsorce cars. I know of two new cars being built that will equal if not exceed them. Where does this leave the guy just getting into IT. Another post on this forum has a guy giving up on IT because he won't spend $30k to get in. At least in a class that is both reg. and nat. a new guy has a fighting chance at regionals without having to race against the best of the class right off the bat. Starting regionalaly in IT today is like starting at nationals. The reason IT didn't follow the same progression to national as SS, is the lack of manufacturer pressure.

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John W.
EP 2nd. gen Rx-7
racer-john
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10 Jan 2001 11:45 AM
Sorry Peter I read your location wrong but I'm sure you have seen some of the leading IT cars and know the point I'm trying to make. SCCAForums Image

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John W.
EP 2nd. gen Rx-7
Peter Olivola
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10 Jan 2001 12:40 PM
The reason I disagree with this view can be summed up very briefly: E Production. The limited prep rules provide an outlet for those who want to spend money to go faster in IT and we've seen that occur last year. The growth of EP was unprecedented.

I would note that CenDiv has possibly seen a disproportionate amount of that growth so it may be skewing my perception, but it's hard to argue with The Sprints and Runoff's numbers increases for the class.

I would also note that this kind of thing is self limiting. When those few killer IT cars find diminishing fields they will loose their incentive to continue and move on. Rules and incentive stability are the best hope of controlling costs. The cycle time may be deep, but for an example of all this look closely at the history of FV.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by racer-john:
[b]Peter,
Again I agree with the fact that "win at any cost" has hurt SS but in SS the guys that have this attitude race mostly nationals and those that don't, race regionaly. I think IT would be the same. As it is now this attitude is out of control in IT. You're from the NE, you've seen the speedsorce cars. I know of two new cars being built that will equal if not exceed them. Where does this leave the guy just getting into IT. Another post on this forum has a guy giving up on IT because he won't spend $30k to get in. At least in a class that is both reg. and nat. a new guy has a fighting chance at regionals without having to race against the best of the class right off the bat. Starting regionalaly in IT today is like starting at nationals. The reason IT didn't follow the same progression to national as SS, is the lack of manufacturer pressure.

[/b]
ITA-MR2
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11 Jan 2001 07:20 PM
Evidently I misunderstood the concept when I started racing. I thought the idea was to have a helluv'a lot of fun, and if you win - all the better!

I can't afford - no, that's not right - I refuse to spend the money on a car that some people do. Gee whiz, I own an EP car that won it's last National in GT-3, and has won 3 of 4 regionals it entered - with nothing illegal in EP but the valve sizes. I've spent a lot less on it than some of you guys are talking about for an IT car.

Now I've made the conscious decision to go back to IT. And I still will have a ball - with a whole lot less than $20K in my IT car! For what it's worth, I won a Divisional ITC championship a few years ago with a moderately quick (about 5% slower than lap records), but very consistent, very dependable ride that I had less than $4K in.

If you want to spend that kind of $$, and winning's that important - try Pro Racing.
DaveB
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12 Jan 2001 06:39 PM
Here, here!!

There are some of us whose success in life is not predicated on winning a trinket trophy at a club race. In the last 10 years racing in the IT class, I finished 4th once wich was nice, but it certainly was not the sole purpose in my going to the track. I really don't think any one has any more fun racing than I do whether I finish 4th or 7th or 10th. The thrill of going fast, the desire to improve skills, and the camaraderie of the people far outweigh the trophy. I for one will not spend the money necessary to win a club race at the regional level, and I am not prepared to spend the time and money most national level drivers do to continually repair the car after each race. In most of the races I have worked in the past years, I have seen more rubbing and bumping in national races than regionals.

I don't begrudge those who chose to spend the money to run up front. They earned it, they can spend it as they please. We are all in this for our own reasons. The IT fields are big because there are a significant number of people who chose to race only at that level, or can only afford to race at that level, and that is fine.

all of a sudden, I'm getting a terrible case of Spring fever................

Cheers,

Dave
Karl Bocchieri
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14 Jan 2001 07:58 AM
So where the hell is OUR (IT racers) transition to national racing? Why should I have to biuld a new car? Your logic seens to fail in that respect. Im 6'5" tall and weigh 250 lbs, I dont fit in open wheel cars and have no desire to race them. I also dont want to race a production car that was manufactured before I was born. I race my IT car because I grew up with them, I can work on it, and it has rear wheel drive and is cost effective. Cost is an important factor, I dont want to convert my car to production, (even with limited prep)it costs to much. I would rather go Speedvision cup and get some exposure on TV. IT needs to be seen by the SCCA and national racers as what it is, competative, close, racing. Like everyone else we need an outlet to move up and show how good we are. It's unfair that we are told to ditch a car that we have developed over many years and start over.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
[b]The rule requiring all national classes be run at a full regional exists to provide a transition from drivers school to regional to national without having to change equipment.

The negative impact on the national program from limiting those classes to nationals only would be devastating. It will cut entries dramatically and endanger the entire program.

[/b]
Karl Bocchieri
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14 Jan 2001 08:03 AM
I agree with you 100%, I think the most important part of your message and one that is lost on most, that IT racing IS the most popular class. There is usually strength in numbers, except in the SCCA.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by racer-john:
[b]Peter,
I agree that regional racing should provide a path to higher levels of racing. The problem is that our most popular class, IT doesn't provide that path. Its almost like the national crowd has kept IT at a regional level only to keep the "rifraf" out. The impression at the national level is that IT is just a bunch of junk yard refugees crashing into each other. Nothing could be further from the truth! I've said it before and now you can all trash me on this board, phase out the old and diminishing production classes and replace the with a modified IT class. By modified I mean let IT remove headlights, glass and the crap that dosen't cost alot to do and makes the cars faster. IT guys that don't want to modify can continue to race on a regioal level the way they are. For the Prod guys that are just too far gone to go back give them big carbs and open brakes and put them in GT. With this we eliminat a race group and provide the much needed opprotunity for IT drivers to race at the national level. [/b]
Karl Bocchieri
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14 Jan 2001 08:26 AM
The growth in E production was caused by the SCCA letting some newer cars into the class. There was no one left who wanted to race a 20-30 year old car. I think that most of these cars were not previous IT racers. As far as cost, killer IT cars cost $20-30,000 and more are being biult every day. You can add $20,000 to make it into a good production car. Not cost effective. I dont need to go faster, my ITS car was faster than more than half the AS cars that race in our group. Close racing is whats important, not ultimate speed, ask FV.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
[b]The reason I disagree with this view can be summed up very briefly: E Production. The limited prep rules provide an outlet for those who want to spend money to go faster in IT and we've seen that occur last year. The growth of EP was unprecedented.

I would note that CenDiv has possibly seen a disproportionate amount of that growth so it may be skewing my perception, but it's hard to argue with The Sprints and Runoff's numbers increases for the class.

I would also note that this kind of thing is self limiting. When those few killer IT cars find diminishing fields they will loose their incentive to continue and move on. Rules and incentive stability are the best hope of controlling costs. The cycle time may be deep, but for an example of all this look closely at the history of FV.

[/b]
Peter Olivola
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14 Jan 2001 09:58 AM
I'm sorry, Karl, but it isn't possible to satisfy everyone all the time. The SCCA has enough history with Showroom Stock to make the appropriate judgement that making IT a national class would have the same effect it had on Showroom Stock, i.e., rapidly accelerate cost increases.

I understand you think that's already being done, but there seems to be a lot of counter argument about the cost to compete in IT.

To put it bluntly, neither you nor anyone else is entitled to have things the way you want. The Club is only just beginning to address the problems created by that kind of thinking when some individuals with similar agendas worked their way into positions that allowed them to influence rules making to their own advantage.

Your choice of car was made when the rules were the same as they are today. Your argument is a bit like the people moving into the vacinity of Summit Point and then complaining about the noise.

Your option to go World Challenge or Motorola Cup is there. Perhaps you should be looking in that direction.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl Bocchieri:
[b]So where the hell is OUR (IT racers) transition to national racing? Why should I have to biuld a new car? Your logic seens to fail in that respect. Im 6'5" tall and weigh 250 lbs, I dont fit in open wheel cars and have no desire to race them. I also dont want to race a production car that was manufactured before I was born. I race my IT car because I grew up with them, I can work on it, and it has rear wheel drive and is cost effective. Cost is an important factor, I dont want to convert my car to production, (even with limited prep)it costs to much. I would rather go Speedvision cup and get some exposure on TV. IT needs to be seen by the SCCA and national racers as what it is, competative, close, racing. Like everyone else we need an outlet to move up and show how good we are. It's unfair that we are told to ditch a car that we have developed over many years and start over.
[/b]
SamITC85
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15 Jan 2001 04:01 AM
I think people are too worried about the whole money aspect of bumping IT to a national class. Whether people want to believe it or not, and especially with the ARRC becoming so popular, IT is a national class we just don't run national races. Most of the IT cars are already built to the maximum the IT rules will allow. So how will cost increase?

I don't see how cost became such an issue in SS since the cars cannot be modified except with tires and safety equipment. So the only cause for increase in racing cost is the rise in prices of cars and tires.

No matter what class you race in people are going to spend a lot of money, because they have it, so what harm would come out of making IT a national class? Just curious.
Peter Olivola
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15 Jan 2001 04:46 AM
You still haven't experienced the mass rush to the parts bins that characterized the move of SS to national. That's the kind of thing that gets expensive. When there is a limit on what you can do to improve performance it becomes increasingly expensive to do it. If there's more incentive to win, i.e., national status, there will be more willingness to spend the money.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SamITC85:
[b]I think people are too worried about the whole money aspect of bumping IT to a national class. Whether people want to believe it or not, and especially with the ARRC becoming so popular, IT is a national class we just don't run national races. Most of the IT cars are already built to the maximum the IT rules will allow. So how will cost increase?

I don't see how cost became such an issue in SS since the cars cannot be modified except with tires and safety equipment. So the only cause for increase in racing cost is the rise in prices of cars and tires.

No matter what class you race in people are going to spend a lot of money, because they have it, so what harm would come out of making IT a national class? Just curious.[/b]
flatovercrest
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18 Jan 2001 11:29 PM
test

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
[b]You still haven't experienced the mass rush to the parts bins that characterized the move of SS to national. That's the kind of thing that gets expensive. When there is a limit on what you can do to improve performance it becomes increasingly expensive to do it. If there's more incentive to win, i.e., national status, there will be more willingness to spend the money.

[/b]




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Karl Bocchieri
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20 Jan 2001 09:21 AM
The cost increase is already there! Haven't you seen the $35,000 ITS cars out there. A new BMW E36 will cost even more to trick out. Again your argument is invalid, those that dont want to spend will stay in regoinal races just like some of the national cars do. Those that want to spend and get exposure would have the OPPORTUNITY to race in a national. Don't you think that the 35 grand ITS cars would run nationals and leave the regionals to the other guys? The top ITS cars are already developed to the max, not much cost increase there. New tires for every race, already being done. Multiple engine,trans,rear combos, again already there. Again because it is a club and the SCCA should listen to it's members. IT is a very large part of the club racing group, and should be catered to otherwise they will go elseware. I don't want NON-IT racers making rules and and policys for my class. The other national racers have a vested intrest in not letting us in.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
[b]You still haven't experienced the mass rush to the parts bins that characterized the move of SS to national. That's the kind of thing that gets expensive. When there is a limit on what you can do to improve performance it becomes increasingly expensive to do it. If there's more incentive to win, i.e., national status, there will be more willingness to spend the money.

[/b]
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