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Last Post 23 Jan 2001 06:41 PM by  Ken Grammer
Road Racing evolution...
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Karl Bocchieri
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20 Jan 2001 09:34 AM
The cost increase is already there! Haven't you seen the $35,000 ITS cars out there. A new BMW E36 will cost even more to trick out. Again your argument is invalid, those that dont want to spend will stay in regoinal races just like some of the national cars do. Those that want to spend and get exposure would have the OPPORTUNITY to race in a national. Don't you think that the 35 grand ITS cars would run nationals and leave the regionals to the other guys? The top ITS cars are already developed to the max, not much cost increase there. New tires for every race, already being done. Multiple engine,trans,rear combos, again already there. Again because it is a club and the SCCA should listen to it's members. IT is a very large part of the club racing group, and should be catered to otherwise they will go elseware. I don't want NON-IT racers making rules and and policys for my class. The other national racers have a vested intrest in not letting us in.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
[b]You still haven't experienced the mass rush to the parts bins that characterized the move of SS to national. That's the kind of thing that gets expensive. When there is a limit on what you can do to improve performance it becomes increasingly expensive to do it. If there's more incentive to win, i.e., national status, there will be more willingness to spend the money.

[/b]
Peter Olivola
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20 Jan 2001 02:31 PM
I think it's rather presumptuous of you to think that IT racers aren't influencing the course of the class. Presumptuous and wrong. And the statement that non-IT racers have a vested interested in keeping IT out of national status is not supported by facts. So far, all you've done is state your opinion which seems to be based on your belief that 20k+ cars are overrunning IT. Unfortunately for you argument, there have been an even greater number of people who not only believe but prove otherwise by their participation in the class. Your "threat" to go elsewhere is yours to make. However, I think the fact that you would make it is an indication that you're frustrated with not being able to get me to agree with your point of view. The "threat" isn't going to win me over. If you'd like to know why, reply privately.

You still haven't answered my question about why you think that changes should be made to accomodate you when you knew going in that IT was a regional only class. Why do you think you or anyone one else in the SCCA is entitled to special consideration? As I've already said, that kind of thing is exactly what led production down the garden path of rules creep. You're no different than those who argued in the past for "adjustments" to keep competitive and then worked their way into positions to directly influence rules making to their own advantage.

The SCCA has changed. How much remains to be seen, but there is a definite feeling about the club that the lesson has been learned at last and we're not going there again. I'm sorry if you feel you're being "victimized" by those changes. The rules were there when you started and what the vast majority of club racers have emphatically indicated is that everyone is expected to play by the rules.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl Bocchieri:
[b]The cost increase is already there! Haven't you seen the $35,000 ITS cars out there. A new BMW E36 will cost even more to trick out. Again your argument is invalid, those that dont want to spend will stay in regoinal races just like some of the national cars do. Those that want to spend and get exposure would have the OPPORTUNITY to race in a national. Don't you think that the 35 grand ITS cars would run nationals and leave the regionals to the other guys? The top ITS cars are already developed to the max, not much cost increase there. New tires for every race, already being done. Multiple engine,trans,rear combos, again already there. Again because it is a club and the SCCA should listen to it's members. IT is a very large part of the club racing group, and should be catered to otherwise they will go elseware. I don't want NON-IT racers making rules and and policys for my class. The other national racers have a vested intrest in not letting us in.


[/b]
Karl Bocchieri
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21 Jan 2001 02:27 PM
SS was a regional class that moved up, AS was also a regional class that moved up. Why shoulden't I expect the opportunity to move up? Is AS better than me? National racers do have an interest in keeping us out. On another chat there is talk of too many groups and not enough time at races. Add IT in national races and you get just what happens at regional races, too many run groups. IT would take at least 2 run groups (ITS,ITB and ITC,ITA).
What lesson was learned from SS? That some racers will go to the extreme in expense and preperation? It is already being done in IT. Listen, I could go out tomorrow and buy a speedsource ITS car, or any other class of car for that mater, but part of the fun for me is tinkering with the car and knowing that I built it myself. The average guy can build an IT car in his garage by himself. Not something that can be said of most other classes. I have spoken to alot of the guys in the NE in ITS and I am not alone in my thoughts, just more vocal.
Peter Olivola
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21 Jan 2001 04:31 PM
The difference between IT and SS/AS is that IT was created as a regional only class with the stated intention that it would remain a regional only class.

Claiming you're just more vocal than a number of people who agree with you does not address the point that others flat disagree with you assessment of the situation in IT. That is, other IT drivers.

But, I'll tell you what, Karl. There is a procedure to follow to push your agenda. Petition the Comp. Board and BoD to have IT made a national class and then let's let the process take its course. I know you've already dismissed this because you think all the other national classes are out to get you, but that's the way the club is structured. It isn't the IT Car Club of America. There are a lot of other people with potentially competing interests. You may get what you want. You may not. But that's the way the club works. I doubt this is the place where you're going to effect any change, and I think you know it, but if you want to keep ventilating about it try something new. You haven't made an original point in your last three posts and you haven't answered most of the questions posed to you.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karl Bocchieri:
[b]SS was a regional class that moved up, AS was also a regional class that moved up. Why shoulden't I expect the opportunity to move up? Is AS better than me? National racers do have an interest in keeping us out. On another chat there is talk of too many groups and not enough time at races. Add IT in national races and you get just what happens at regional races, too many run groups. IT would take at least 2 run groups (ITS,ITB and ITC,ITA).
What lesson was learned from SS? That some racers will go to the extreme in expense and preperation? It is already being done in IT. Listen, I could go out tomorrow and buy a speedsource ITS car, or any other class of car for that mater, but part of the fun for me is tinkering with the car and knowing that I built it myself. The average guy can build an IT car in his garage by himself. Not something that can be said of most other classes. I have spoken to alot of the guys in the NE in ITS and I am not alone in my thoughts, just more vocal. [/b]
racer-john
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22 Jan 2001 10:48 AM
As the originator of this chain I sugest that we start a new post concerning the Nationalzation of IT under the IT heading. We have long strayed from the original thoughts. I will not start this new thead as I am not an IT competitor but eagerly await the storm of replies. For the record Peter, things change and we must evolve! SCCAForums Image

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John W.
EP 2nd. gen Rx-7
Karl Bocchieri
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22 Jan 2001 04:37 PM
John,
I went back and read all the posts on this thread and feel some what vindicated in my belief that there is some support for change in IT. Good luck in production.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by racer-john:
[b]As the originator of this chain I sugest that we start a new post concerning the Nationalzation of IT under the IT heading. We have long strayed from the original thoughts. I will not start this new thead as I am not an IT competitor but eagerly await the storm of replies. For the record Peter, things change and we must evolve! SCCAForums Image

[/b]


,
racer-john
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23 Jan 2001 06:23 AM
Ken, I agree completley and hope for the good of our club that you are successful in making the change happen. I must also agree with Peter that this is not the place to get it done and petitioning the comp board is what is going to get make it happen. Good luck

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John W.
EP 2nd. gen Rx-7
Ken Grammer
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23 Jan 2001 06:41 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by racer-john:
[b]Ken, I agree completley and hope for the good of our club that you are successful in making the change happen. I must also agree with Peter that this is not the place to get it done and petitioning the comp board is what is going to get make it happen. Good luck
[/b]


My letter (e-mail) to the comp board is "on file". SCCAForums Image


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Ken Grammer
R.E. Alabama Region
SEDiv AS Camaro #61
Starter/F&C Worker
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