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Last Post 13 Mar 2001 11:48 AM by  SA McChesney
Waving White "Last Lap" FLag?
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David Dewhurst
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11 Feb 2001 06:54 AM
Anubis, you are at Road America entering the Kink (the Kink is a slight R.H. turn & blind)
@ 130 MPH with a white flag, a little over steer, you spin and crash into the wrecker on the R.H. side of the track.

Did you take care ?

I ask the question again what does the white flag "Take Care" mean ?

Peter, you used some very interesting words in your post of 2/10/01. "Creative interpertation" I beleive the white flag rule of "Take Care" leaves room for an incredible amount of "creative interperation".

To any one who reads this post. As a club do we want to be proactive or reactive.
Anubis
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11 Feb 2001 12:02 PM
Nope, you didn't take care. It's YOUR CHOICE. But I tell you what, if that happenned you need to be sat down for 6 months and forced to start the whole licensing process over again. I would think that you would not enter a blind corner that hot with a white flag up. God forbid you hurt any workers...

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Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C
Peter Olivola
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11 Feb 2001 12:59 PM
Don't misunderstand, Dave, hearing the excuses and believing the excuses are not the same thing. One of the problems we face is the kind of situation encountered last year at BIR. A corner called in a PUY and the tower called for the paper. The driver was summoned to the tower after his event. He showed up about 15 minutes after he got off the track, but the paperwork was nowhere in sight. The driver who was supposedly passed didn't remember it being on the yellow. When the corner captain finally showed up it turned out the incident was directly opposite the flagging point and there was no PUY.

Making the call to punish a driver is seldom a black and white situation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
[b]Anubis, you are at Road America entering the Kink (the Kink is a slight R.H. turn & blind)
@ 130 MPH with a white flag, a little over steer, you spin and crash into the wrecker on the R.H. side of the track.

Did you take care ?

I ask the question again what does the white flag "Take Care" mean ?

Peter, you used some very interesting words in your post of 2/10/01. "Creative interpertation" I beleive the white flag rule of "Take Care" leaves room for an incredible amount of "creative interperation".

To any one who reads this post. As a club do we want to be proactive or reactive. [/b]




[This message has been edited by Peter Olivola (edited February 11, 2001).]
The Crew Dude
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11 Feb 2001 03:32 PM
At cost of sounding naive I race to have fun. Whether it is driving, crewing, or working as (corner worker, marshall etc.) Yes I go to the limits of the rules and ability, but not at the cost of injuring my fellow competitors or workers!
The waving white flag makes sense to me.
David Dewhurst
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11 Feb 2001 05:42 PM
Lance & Crew Dude, if you two think the white flag is 100 percent correct when a wrecker and or ambulance is on a road course then why in a different organization (Ya ol boys know about oval racing) do they use the yellow flag when a wrecker and or ambulance is on the track ? Are those oval track people all wrong ?

Not that you two care what I think but they use the yellow flag so that no one else gets involved in what has already happened on the track. Now if that works on an oval where nothing is near as blind as things are on some road coarses tell me why it would not improve things where we race for personal fun.

Lance & Crew Dude please answer the question and don't go down another side road asking questions/stating that maybe I have missed something while reading the GCR.
Peter Olivola
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11 Feb 2001 05:49 PM
Uh, Dave, yellow on an oval is a FCY, not a yellow for safety vehicles.

As for things not being as blind on an oval, see CART, Phoenix, 1993, J. Villeneuve vs. H. Matsushita.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
[b]Lance & Crew Dude, if you two think the white flag is 100 percent correct when a wrecker and or ambulance is on a road course then why in a different organization (Ya ol boys know about oval racing) do they use the yellow flag when a wrecker and or ambulance is on the track ? Are those oval track people all wrong ?

Not that you two care what I think but they use the yellow flag so that no one else gets involved in what has already happened on the track. Now if that works on an oval where nothing is near as blind as things are on some road coarses tell me why it would not improve things where we race for personal fun.

Lance & Crew Dude please answer the question and don't go down another side road asking questions/stating that maybe I have missed something while reading the GCR.

[/b]




[This message has been edited by Peter Olivola (edited February 11, 2001).]
Anubis
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11 Feb 2001 06:56 PM
In oval track racing they goto the yellow ALOT quicker then we do. If you notice in most cases they don't roll emergency vehicles onto the track until the yellow comes out. We don't do that in the SCCA. They have spotters all around the course letting them know what's up. Most in SCCA don't have that. I really ask you....if you see a white flag, please pay attention to it. We don't put it out there for nothing.

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Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C
Ken Grammer
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12 Feb 2001 07:35 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Dewhurst:
[b]Anubis, you are at Road America entering the Kink (the Kink is a slight R.H. turn & blind)
@ 130 MPH with a white flag, a little over steer, you spin and crash into the wrecker on the R.H. side of the track.

Did you take care ?

I ask the question again what does the white flag "Take Care" mean ?

Peter, you used some very interesting words in your post of 2/10/01. "Creative interpertation" I beleive the white flag rule of "Take Care" leaves room for an incredible amount of "creative interperation".

To any one who reads this post. As a club do we want to be proactive or reactive. [/b]


I can't believe all the flaggers here didn't catch this...

A white flag is shown for TWO consective corners before the slow moving vehicle. In your example, the driver will have been properly notified to "take care" well before coming on the slower car. Also, if the slow moving car or safety vehicle is in the line, the workers certainly have the option of covering with a standing or a waving yellow depending on the nature of the scene.

A white means that there is a slowly *moving* vehicle on the track which is not in the line (with the possible exception of certain turns where this can't easily be avoided). If I see a white, I know I'm OK on the straights but need to be cautious in the turns. Since the white is displayed for two turns before the slow vehicle, I have time to locate the car.

If I see a white with an annimated worker, the slowly moving car could be making its way through the line and I need to "take care".

This isn't rocket science. Just common sense. Learn to watch (and trust) what the corner workers are saying with the flag and with their body language. They'll take care of you!

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Ken Grammer
R.E. Alabama Region
SEDiv AS Camaro #61
Starter/F&C Worker
David Dewhurst
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13 Feb 2001 05:53 AM
Guys, thanks for the replys. If I don't get outa here someones gona throw the red flag. All I was doing is puting out my 2 cents worth for a little discussion & thats what it got treated like. No big deal within 2 months the tracks up here will be black rather than white.
Max Lake
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13 Feb 2001 06:32 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken Grammer:
[b] A white means that there is a slowly *moving* vehicle on the track which is not in the line (with the possible exception of certain turns where this can't easily be avoided). [/b]


Can't find anything in my GCR setting out the relationship of the slow moving vehicle and the the line under a white flag.

Maybe your GCR is different?



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Max
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JimFMracer
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13 Feb 2001 08:25 AM
Do what you want SCCA, I race flat out until I see something resembling a CHECKERED FLAG. LOL
David Dewhurst
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22 Feb 2001 06:24 AM
White Flag message participants:

As a small group of people we have stated our thoughts relative to the SCCA white flag and here are the results.

At this time lets focus our reference only on the last lap indicator. Focus on one thing at a time.

10 for white flag indicating the last lap

7 leave the white flag status quo

2 iffy, use whats best

1 Quote by JimFMracer: " I race flat out untill I see something resembling a checkered flag".

That is a total of 20 people, kinda like a mid sized race group. Out of these 20 people 1 needs an attitude adjustment. I sure hope that this is not the mentality of each & every race group. The attitude of this 1 in 20 people is why each flag needs to have a very straight forward meaning so that after someone is hurt/killed on a race course no one will be put in a position to listen to the EXCUSES of this 1 person.

WE all have been hearing a lot of people talking reactive in the last week.

"Take Care"





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David Dewhurst
CenDiv, Milwaukee Region
Spec-7 #14
TNS_GUY
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06 Mar 2001 11:35 AM
Right! The only logical solution is that If White is used for last lap, then a new flag must be created for vehicle on course. This would also free up the white for first lap "here's the flag station" because it would be obvious that is isn't the last lap.

It's way too confusing to have a flag with one meaning at the start finish and something else around the course, and also to propose a special flag only for the last lap, safety vehicle, only from the starter.

Possible solution would be a red cross on a white flag for safety vehicle on course (kind of obvious reasons) and white flag only waved at S/F.

SCCAForums Image

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter Olivola:
[b]It's going to be hard because drivers have a difficult enough time as it is understanding the single meaning of a flag.

Any situation that creates even the remotest opportunity for ambiguity will become a mantra in conversations between stewards and drivers. If you think it's a problem now that drivers don't "see" yellows this will raise "misunderstanding" to a whole new level.

[/b]
SA McChesney
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10 Mar 2001 09:56 PM
I don't think I've ever seen a "slow moving vehicle" white without a full-course yellow, with the possible exception of a cool-down lap after the checker.

At the tracks I race, like LRP and Watkins Glen, they are pretty conservative. Something requiring an ambulance or an immediate wrecker will probably only come with a full course yellow. (That's TWO yellow flags now at each corner, for the visually impaired among us.)

The Waving white flag follows the vehicle(s) around, usually a flag station or two ahead of the vehicle. The white flags are handles by another worker usually, so you typically have:

A full course DOUBLE yellow
A full course STANDING white
A Waving white when you get close to the vehicle(s).

I'm not quoting rules or anything, I'm just relating what I've experienced (and seems to work) empirically.

I'm comfortable with a waving white at SF, or furled white at SF, but the one finger is just as good to me and obviously easier on Starters. Doesn't require signs, numbers, specifications thereof, or special striped flags, or multiple rules for the same flag.

I do think some sort of "Last Lap" indication should be a rule. While I agree it's a racer's responsibility to count laps, I think there are reasonable safety considerations to indicating the last lap. Cars don't always finish on the same lap - especially in mixed group fields.

So I'm all for the one finger held up. (Just please be careful which finger is used...)


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ken Grammer:
[b] A white flag is shown for TWO consective corners before the slow moving vehicle
[/b]




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Steve McChesney
http://www.ssdiv.com
Peter Olivola
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11 Mar 2001 05:21 PM
Steve, snatch and grabs have become rare outside Central Division (mostly at Road America.) I think it's a case of club following pro, an unfortunate occurance in my opinion. We use them in CenDiv regularly, whenever possible, to provide maximum track time and maintain schedules.
Jakester
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12 Mar 2001 09:22 AM
Steve,
White for slow moving vehicles is not limited to emergency vehicles. Many, if not most, white flags are for 'wounded' race cars slowly making their way around the track to the pits.

Down here in SOWDIV, we also try to do as much under local yellow as possible to maximize green track time.

Remember, per SCCA club rules, once the slow moving vehicle stops (EV or race car), it's not a white flag anymore, it's either a yellow or no flag.
SA McChesney
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13 Mar 2001 11:48 AM
Jakester, I hear you.

I race mostly Vintage sprints. There are quite a few mechnicals, but there's kind of a general agreement that "wounded" cars should pull behind a station, or safely to the inside, out of the way. There's never enough time to fix anything, and there's little sense in a [ahem] 60's British car with a blown oil return hose circumnavigating the majority of the track providing *everyone* with the same Mobil-1 treated racing surface. ;-)

This maximizes "green" time as well. I don't treat a white exactly the same as a yellow, but pretty close. I can't Race (with a capital 'R') with a good feeling when there's somebody at 1/3 or less race speed, even off-line, concentrating on limping a car.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jakester:
[b]Many, if not most, white flags are for 'wounded' race cars slowly ... local yellow as possible to maximize green track time.
[/b]




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Steve McChesney
http://www.ssdiv.com
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