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Last Post 06 Jan 2001 08:33 AM by  CamaroFS34
1.8T's in STS
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Garfield
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28 Dec 2000 12:36 PM
    I may be wrong, but I think running a VW Golf 1.8T in STS is a winning combo.
    They're allowed for this year, CAN be chipped, you just can't use a bigger turbo if it's chipped.
    The R&D for Golf/GTI suspensions has been done. Sounds like a logical choice, huh?

    BTW, I'm only saying this to see if anyone agrees with me, although I'm not in the market to do it myself.
    CamaroFS34
    Veteran Member
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    28 Dec 2000 12:51 PM
    I think there are a lot of cars that have potential in STS... not just the Impreza or the VW. Before I ever *thought* about driving Eric Kriemelmeyer's car, I did a local event in Ross Atwell's Neon, and that car (a SOHC one) is quite capable of winning too. The Probe GT is probably a pretty good car, as is the Civic. At the ProSolos, the Impreza has the AWD advantage off the line, but at a "regular" event, it's going to be a toss up (IMO).
    Just as in pretty much *any* class, the car that wins STS will probably be the car with the best driver and at the very least, a *good* setup. The difference between the two Imprezas I drove at the Pro Finale last year was remarkable, and I don't think I could have won in Richard West's car (and I told him that). Some people will tell you that the setup isn't as important as the driver, but it definitely plays an important role.

    Karen Kraus
    1996 Camaro Z28 1LE (FS34)


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    "You never get away, you only get someplace else" -- Lovka's Dilemma
    dkizerian
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    28 Dec 2000 02:59 PM
    As the owner of a 2001 GTI 1.8t I'm going to disagree with it being "the car" the suspension is antique at best, and the car is heavy in all the wrong places....

    I've driven a couple of well prepped subarus, I owned a well prepped civic, and a well prepped 84 GTI, and all of these cars had significant advantages over the 1.8t... Although the engine Is very smooth.... And I am looking forward to G-stock...




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    Dave Kizerian
    URSCCA
    New Driver Coordinator
    pylon
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    28 Dec 2000 03:20 PM
    After watching at Nationals this year, and getting my ass handed to me in my Golf 3, I would say the best cars would include:

    Impreza 2.5rs
    Neons
    and maybe even a well prepped corrado

    I have thought about going the corrado route, but will probably buy a sube late next year... gotta get one more season out of the golf so I can pay off bills SCCAForums Image

    There was a 1.8t Beetle that ran at Nats, in STS even, he was about mid pack, not sure of his abilities though either, so...


    Pylon

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    [url="http://http:www.christoc.com/vw/"]94 VW Golf 3[/URL]
    [url="http://www.pylon.cc"]Pylon.CC[/URL]
    RonConrad
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    28 Dec 2000 03:46 PM
    Hi Karen, Tell everybody out East hi! I'm getting a new ride for 2001. I'm buying Renee Eady's STS 86 Civic Si, though it might not stay Yellow. I would like to have everything together with tires in time for the Mississippi Tour event. Say hi to Pat, Ross, Eric, Vince and the gang and have a happy new Century!

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    Ron Conrad
    STS - 86 Honda Civic Si
    pleiades
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    28 Dec 2000 04:32 PM
    What about a Impreza-eating Legacy GT? SCCAForums Image SCCAForums Image

    1998 Subaru Legacy GT.
    CCR-SCCA STS Champion 2000 SCCAForums Image SCCAForums Image
    Garfield
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    28 Dec 2000 05:00 PM
    I'm not going to argue, but try to throw some more logic in. My statements are less educated (but I do have a 1.8T Passat) so I just like to see logical explanations.
    It seems most of you missed my point. With a 1.8T putting 150 lb/ft. of torque at the wheels at 1800 RPM, then adding a "small" chip for up to 220 lb/ft. of torque at 1800 RPM, it easily becomes one of the highest low end torque cars in the class. I know power isn't everything, but certain courses require A LOT of the LOW end stuff and can make up for lack of handling (F Stock SCCAForums Image).
    On the suspension side, if we're talking about a race prepped, locked down suspension, what does the "stock" suspension have to do with anything?
    Just trying to think on the far end of preparation, what else matches the power for such a "compact" car.

    Again, not trying to argue, just want to see some better justification that it's not a good choice.
    Tony
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    29 Dec 2000 05:30 AM
    From what has been discussed on the STS mailing list the chips available for the 1.8T aren't legal for STS since they alter boost. The rules state that the engine management controllers are only allowed to alter fuel and timing.

    STS mailing list at: [url="http://www.egroups.com/group/streettouring"]http://www.egroups.com/group/streettouring[/URL]

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    Tony Powell - Impreza 2.5 RS
    Philly Region SCCA Member - STS #12
    Garfield
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    29 Dec 2000 08:09 AM
    Seems to me like we're reading this differently then:

    "C. Engine management systems may be modified by the following means only. For the purposes of these rules the engine management system consists of two parts: the fuel control system and the ignition control system. Each system may be modified by either electronic or mechanical means but not both."

    Doesn't say anything about Turbo boost, says that you can use electronic means OR mechanical means, but not both. To me, that means a chip OR bigger Turbo, but not both. And since adding a bigger Turbo but not changing boost would do nothing, you would add the boost through a chip by itself.

    Or, I'm reading it wrong, but it's certainly left open.
    Tony
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    29 Dec 2000 08:23 AM
    Usually the way the rules are inturpretted (by the rule lawyers) is if it doesn't say you can do something, then you can't. So since it says nothing about altering boost you can't alter boost. It does say you can alter fuel and ignition management by either mechanical or electronic means but that won't change your boost. If there was a chip on the market for 1.8T's that modified ONLY the fuel and ignition it would be legal but it wouldn't add big horsepower either.

    Edit: And the bigger turbo wouldn't be an option either since you're not allowed to modify the engine in that way. Besides if you're going to that much trouble there's a class called SM SCCAForums Image

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    Tony Powell - #12 STS (Soft PAX, hard tires)
    Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
    Philly Region SCCA Member
    Street Touring Mailing List: [url="http://www.egroups.com/group/streettouring"]http://www.egroups.com/group/streettouring[/URL]

    [This message has been edited by Tony (edited December 29, 2000).]
    Garfield
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    29 Dec 2000 08:59 AM
    Tony, then that answers ALL of the questions and suggestions I was making, obviously it's not a great choice then.

    Thanks,
    Brian
    Hoodoo
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    05 Jan 2001 12:42 AM
    I may be reading this wrong...but don't the rules exclude anything with a turbo or a supercharger? Maybe these rules are old or something. Could somone please post a link to updated rules if this is so.
    [url="http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/classes/st_tour.html"]http://www.scca.org/amateur/solo2/classes/st_tour.html[/URL]



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    What? Am I supposed to put something insightful here?
    Crack Monkey
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    05 Jan 2001 04:21 AM
    Those rules are old. In 2001 the 1.8t cars will be allowed. And possibly other small turbo cars.

    I have two questions about the boost/ECU? So, its been determined we can alter fuel management by electrical means - wouldn't adding air constitute fuel management, in that you are effectively leaning the mixture? Also, is there any way to enforce boost levels? There is no easy way to tell if the car is chipped, so no point legislating against it in any way.
    Tony
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    05 Jan 2001 05:32 AM
    This too has been discussed at length on the Street Touring mailing list. The chips are easy to sneak by but then again I could build a totally worked engine in my subaru that no one could tell wasn't stock w/o a complete teardown but I'd be cheating too. Basically anyone can cheat, it's just easier to do with a 1.8t. Personally I'd feel pretty lame beating people with an illegal car.

    Calling adding boost fuel management is quite a stretch. And I doubt the judges would agree with you.

    For the latest version of the rules there is a Word document you can download from the Street Touring list homepage (address is in my sig). I'm sure it's posted somewhere on the SCCA site but I haven't looked lately.



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    Tony Powell - #12 STS (Soft PAX, hard tires)
    Subaru Impreza 2.5 RS
    Philly Region SCCA Member
    Street Touring Mailing List:
    http://www.egroups.com/group/streettouring
    ColinL
    New Member
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    05 Jan 2001 05:43 AM
    Hey Karen, I am curious what was so different between Eric's and Richard's cars.

    Was it power? I know Eric had a fuel computer, headers, intake, pretty much everything STS legal. Don't know about Richard. Or was it suspension?

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    -Colin
    99 Impreza 2.5RS SM#22
    Davard
    Veteran Member
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    Posts:1249


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    05 Jan 2001 09:43 PM
    Not know either car, my guess is the suspension. Power is nice, but handling is better. (This from a guy whose car handles very well, but doesn't have enough HP. SCCAForums Image)

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    David Avard
    '90 Mazda Protege LX
    CamaroFS34
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    06 Jan 2001 08:33 AM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by ColinL:
    [b]Hey Karen, I am curious what was so different between Eric's and Richard's cars.

    Was it power? I know Eric had a fuel computer, headers, intake, pretty much everything STS legal. Don't know about Richard. Or was it suspension?
    [/b]

    It was a bit of both.

    You have to understand my background. I started in autocross in a Mustang LX 5.0 that ran 12s at the drag strip, then I bought the Camaro, which is a solid mid-13 car at the strip. All of these little 4-cyl cars seem underpowered to me. SCCAForums Image

    Both cars have good launching ability (remember, I was running ProSolo with them), but past that, Eric's car is a bit quicker. Not only that, but... I don't know how to explain it really. I wouldn't necessarily say Eric's car handled better, because we all set our cars up for our [i]own[/i] driving style, but Richard's car did [i]not[/i] mesh with my driving at all. When I drove Eric's car, I was very confident the car would do what I wanted it to do. It was very stable, the tires were grippy, and I just felt like I could keep pushing the car harder and harder.

    Richard's car, on the other hand, [i]felt[/i] more unstable, like it would spin if I screwd up. It felt more like it was prone to oversteering, where Eric's car is very neutral. Anyone who saw me running Richard's car saw the back end was all over the place.

    I think the stability factor was a combination of suspension and tires, as Richard was on.... Michelin Pilots? Maybe he was running Yokohamas... I don't remember. But Eric was on the Kumho 712s.

    Karen Kraus
    1996 Camaro Z28 1LE (FS34) [url="http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/camaro wrote:
    http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/camaro[/URL]

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    "You never get away, you only get someplace else" -- Lovka's Dilemma
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