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Last Post 03 Jan 2001 08:40 PM by  AliBen
Profound Statement
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SoloVR6
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31 Dec 2000 01:15 PM
    I don't know how many of you have checked out the street touring group on egroups.com. I really hope this street touring forum isnt going to turn out like that. Too much crying about cars that are going to be class killers why this isnt allowed, why is this allowed.
    I am here to help others new to the SCCA who have questions, to trade set-up tips, and to BS with some friends. Am I wrong? Is this too much to ask?

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    Pete Berta
    Chicago Region SCCA
    AliBen
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    31 Dec 2000 01:33 PM
    here here
    if you can't stand the heat.........get out of the kitchen.....or in this case....your class.
    believe me there are some class killers out there but rules are rule until they are changed.
    but your victory will be tht much sweeter when you beat one of those so called 'class killers'
    steven

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    MY98 Impreza RS #44
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    31 Dec 2000 02:11 PM
    I'm in STR because of several reasons, one there really is no good class (as of 2000) for slightly modded Civic Sis, two, STR in the Cincy region is composed of several other people whom I'm friends with, and 3, to have fun. Personally I could care less about National Titles, Pro-Solo events, whatnot, I just like to go out on the weekends and have fun, and I have the most fun in STR (or STS if I don't feel like mounting the Rs). Last years competitors in CSP were nothing but assholes who only cared about winning, wrong attitude IMO.

    As far as class killers go, there's always class killers in every group. And if you can't take the heat, see ya. I'm severally outclassed in STR in Cincy but that doesn't stop me from coming out and having fun. And on the days I do make a run at our class leader, hey it's even more fun.

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    1999 Honda Civic Si #17STR
    1984 VW Rabbit GTi ITB (W.I.P)
    ludedaddy96
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    01 Jan 2001 03:08 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Hondaman:
    [b]I'm in STR because of several reasons, one there really is no good class (as of 2000) for slightly modded Civic Sis, two, STR in the Cincy region is composed of several other people whom I'm friends with, and 3, to have fun. Personally I could care less about National Titles, Pro-Solo events, whatnot, I just like to go out on the weekends and have fun, and I have the most fun in STR (or STS if I don't feel like mounting the Rs). Last years competitors in CSP were nothing but assholes who only cared about winning, wrong attitude IMO.

    As far as class killers go, there's always class killers in every group. And if you can't take the heat, see ya. I'm severally outclassed in STR in Cincy but that doesn't stop me from coming out and having fun. And on the days I do make a run at our class leader, hey it's even more fun.

    [/b]


    that's exactly the way it should be. Shouldn't always be about winning. I go to the Cincy autox's and have the best time, every time. All of the guys there in STS are cool as hell. It's not about who's in first or who's not. Good friendly competition, the way it should be.



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    honda93
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    01 Jan 2001 06:06 PM
    I agree on all accounts.

    I posted a topic the other day in the hopes of finding out if other regions or divisions have seen growth in STR because at a National level, it really hasn't exploded in popularity like STS. And to be quite honest, I don't understand why it hasn't.

    Yes autocrossing is first and foremost about having fun and improving ones own driving skills... But the Street Prepared classes have modified the rules over the years so extensively that they truly are "real" race cars by definition. Until our region adopted STS, STR, and SM this year, there were huge turnouts in CSP and DSP and this was significant for a few reasons. To understand them, we must go back in time... When I first started in 1994, I was placed in CSP and I got crushed! It tok me a few seasons to get better at the sport and modify the car enough to begin running with the big boys. It was almost like a "Baptism by Fire"; although I never felt I was capable of going to a ProSolo.
    I finished 3rd in final points 3 seasons in a row, but in 2000... in STR... I went undefeated in 20 events, no matter where I went.

    I finally felt I was ready to try a ProSolo... and I felt I had a shot at winning something. I might have had a chance at Harrisburg in 2000 despite having my right thumb operated on a week earlier! At the end of the event on Sunday, I finished 4th less than .8 behind the winner (the venerable Grady Wood!) but only .1 behind the guy in 3rd. With a healthy thumb, who knows.

    By having the Street Touring categories, we also drew more novices than ever before; and we retained them because they were competing against cars they encountered everyday on the street. The true beauty of STS and STR is this... there will always be a class killer or even a dominant car, but the way the SCCA wrote the rules for these classes, especially the part about them having to be registered and emissions legal, will keep these cars true and the class true to its original intent. As such we will never see $30,000 Civics or Neons rolling into events, and I am OK with that.

    Anthony "Mario" Crea


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    NNJR-SCCA
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    JJTheSubeDriver
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    01 Jan 2001 06:23 PM
    To those who complain about the RS, as it seems to be "a class killer" according to some people that I've talked to, read the above. If you can't stand the heat----




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    JJ Cassa
    Cont Divide Region
    STR 26- 2000 Subaru 2.5RS
    www.usawrx.com
    AliBen
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    01 Jan 2001 07:48 PM
    personaly....i think tht these two classes are just in their infancy as of now. give them 3-4 years i feel comfortable saying tht STS and STR will be the some of the most popular classes in solo2.
    who ever founded these classes was ahead of their time. just in my region the class has grown in leaps and bounds. that is the reason for these classes....to attract more racers.
    steven

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    MY98 Impreza RS #44
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    Davard
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    01 Jan 2001 11:55 PM
    OK, a few responses here.

    The question about the Impreza RS was whether it met the original spirit of the class, and whether having one or two LSDs didn't give it an unfair advantage, when compared to the rest of the class with no LSD.

    For those who weren't around four years ago when the proposal for the Street Touring category came into being, the point of contention was that any car meeting the criteria, which at the time was 2.4 L, 4-cyl., with the equalizing factor being as much power as you want, but you have to be able to put it to the ground with one-wheel-drive. The Sentra SE-R was not legal that first year (1998).

    Allowing the viscous LSD was put in to the rules in 1999, largely at the request of a (group of?) Impreza driver(s), whose argument was loosely based on their popularity with the sport compact crowd. (Agreed)

    The intent was never to say that the Subaru was going to be unbeatably dominant in STS, and if you wanted to play, you'd need to buy one. It was just prompting a discussion, as to whether it might need discussing in future rules considerations.

    Most of the other "class-killer" questions were legitimate questions people had as to what the members in the group had regarding the perceived competitiveness of these new or future models. For most of these, members of the group provided logical reasons for why a given car was not going to be a "class-killer."

    Any group is going to have its fair share of whiners. You have to learn to filter them out and look for the worthwhile info. If you think that STS is bad, you should read some of the marque boards. For my car, a Mazda Protege, I asked on the Protege board how many people had autocrossed. In a group with 330+ members, only four other owners said the autocrossed. Mostly it's stories about how they raced some other model on the highway and blew them away. Or how big their stereo is. Reminds me of a line I saw from a women's magazine discussing dildos--the smallest was called the "Porsche Driver." SCCAForums Image

    I don't think that the Impreza is the dominant choice, despite finishing 1-2 at Nationals. After all the 4th place Neon at Nationals (which I've driven before) is no where near "fully-developed" to the limits of the class. No one has yet brought a well prepared BMW 3-series out. In the San Francisco Region's winter series, Peter Mottaz ran his G-Stock 325is in Street Tire class with a time that was several seconds faster than the STS class winner, so you can see the potential is there if someone can figure how to get all that power down without a LSD.

    Howard Duncan gets the credit for creating the ST concept, although the San Diego region has had classes called "Improved Street" for at least six years. The concept is similar to STR, only with three classes, basically slotting between stock and SP (springs and bars, no engine mods).

    Not meaning to pick on your car or driving abilities, but the Harrisburg result would be more impressive if STS hadn't beaten STR by 0.3 sec. At the Lemoore Pro, driving an STR car (one set up to run on R-tires rather than street tires, and yes the set up is different), Grady beat STS by more than 3 sec.

    (preparing to get flamed)

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    David Avard
    '90 Mazda Protege LX
    Opie
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    02 Jan 2001 06:14 AM
    Davard - Good call SCCAForums Image

    Although I'm biased (I own a Impreza 2.5RS), I still don't believe that it is the "class killer" in STS. Any car, with the right amount of "prep" and a good driver could walk away with the class. I've been beaten several times by a slightly prepped VW GTI VR6, been given good runs by some Neons, Preludes and Civic Si's. The class is still anyones game.

    Because most of the Subaru drivers I know do the "usual" mods to their cars, those "mods" would put them in DSP or STS. The car can be competitive in both classes. I prefer STS because in my region DSP is a small (if not non-existant) class, so it regularly gets bumped into CSP where the Impreza has a hard time being competitive.

    Not flaming, just chatting SCCAForums Image


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    2000 Impreza 2.5RS
    CFR-SCCA STS Class Champion - 2000 Season
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    02 Jan 2001 07:22 AM
    Opie - I definitely agree with you. I don't think the 2.5RS is a class killer in any way for STS. In most regions it could be a class killer with typical mods, but almost any properly prepped car could take a typically modded RS. It all depends on how prepped the vehicle is (and there's a big difference between a properly prepped car vs a typically modded car, but I think we all understand that). A properly prepped anything is going to win the class, assuming the driver is up to par, in any region because of the nature of STS (and STR for that matter), well in most cases. It's only going to be in Pro-Solos or National competition where the top 30 to 40 National drivers, with race prepped vehicles, not typically modded vehicles, are going to be competing and then may the best driver win (once agian I could care less about this level because autoxing to me is fun and I don't want to spend the time or money prepping my daily driven Civic, especially when I have three other vehicles, two of which are race cars).



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    1999 Honda Civic Si #17STR
    1984 VW Rabbit GTi ITB (W.I.P)
    rosss
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    02 Jan 2001 11:51 AM
    I thought the viscous LSD rule was added specifically to allow in the Sentra SE-R, and it accidentally let in the subie too? I can't remember where I heard that though... It does seem strange that if it was meant to allow in the subies they'd write the rule in such a way that excludes all subarus with automatic transmissions...

    BTW, when was the displacement limit upped?

    Sean
    CamaroFS34
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    02 Jan 2001 01:32 PM
    The change to allow the viscous coupling was to specifically allow not only the SE-R, but it was worded, by Howard Duncan, to also allow the Subaru AWD set up as well. AFAIK, he did not do this because a group of Impreza drivers asked, it was to add variety to the class.

    As someone who has driven two of the top ten finishing cars in STS at Nationals (Eric Kriemelemeyer's Subaru and Ross Atwell's Neon), I would not say that the Impreza is a class killer. But, like many classes, a good driver gets into one that is at least decently prepped and does well, so *everyone* is going to flock to that car and with so many people driving the same type of car, it's going to look like an overdog.

    Look at F Stock over the years -- no one thought a fourth gen was competitive with the third gens -- even after Daddio won with his '93 -- because in 1996, it was Goodner in a '91, and in '97 it was Ramey in a third gen, and then finally Dean Sapp won with a fully loaded '98. Then Salerno won with a fully loaded T-topped '95. Finally, it was obvious that fourth gens *could* win and they didn't even need to be 1LEs to do it! Many of the third gens are *gone* from competition now. And now, with Chris Lindberg and Dean Sapp winning so many ProSolos in the Mustang, people are finally starting to believe it can win too, and more and more of them are showing up.

    I took a lot of crap about my stupid L1 win in Harrisburg with the Subaru. My friends weren't saying it, but I heard what certain people were saying behind my back, that the only reason I won was because the Impreza was an overdog in STS and the STS index was soft. Well, I agree that the STS index was soft -- waaaaay too soft. But after I drove that same car fast enough to have won STS open at the Pro Finale, I don't think it was *all* the car or the index that brought me the win. And after starting out the Pro Finale in a different Impreza, and winding up in 6th after the morning runs, I really believe that the car's set up has a lot to do with it, maybe more so that with some of the other car types I've driven.

    I think what it boils down to is that some people are going to whine and cry no matter what because it's easier for them to whine and cry than to come to the realization that they just don't have what it takes to drive a car to its potential. They are very much like my high school biology students -- if they spent half the time they spend whining on something constructive, like an autocross or some other driving school, they wouldn't have as much, if anything, to whine about.

    Karen Kraus
    1996 Camaro Z28 1LE (FS34) [url="http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk"]http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk[/URL]

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    "You never get away, you only get someplace else" -- Lovka's Dilemma
    Davard
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    02 Jan 2001 06:56 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by CamaroFS34:
    [b]I took a lot of crap about my stupid L1 win in Harrisburg with the Subaru. My friends weren't saying it, but I heard what certain people were saying behind my back, that the only reason I won was because the Impreza was an overdog in STS and the STS index was soft. Well, I agree that the STS index was soft -- waaaaay too soft. But after I drove that same car fast enough to have won STS open at the Pro Finale, I don't think it was *all* the car or the index that brought me the win.

    Karen Kraus
    1996 Camaro Z28 1LE (FS34) [url="http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk wrote:
    http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk[/URL]

    [/b]


    Congratulations on your win, but until STS and L1 run in the same group, I don't think it' s fair to compare times between the two groups. There are just too many variables.


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    David Avard
    '90 Mazda Protege LX

    [This message has been edited by Davard (edited January 02, 2001).]
    CamaroFS34
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    02 Jan 2001 07:41 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Davard:
    [b] Congratulations on your win, but until STS and L1 run in the same group, I don't think it' s fair to compare times between the two groups. There are just too many variables.
    [/b]


    Okay, you obviously don't know me, and I don't know you, so I'm going to try to be nice about this, but it's not easy when you push the wrong buttons... if all you're gonna focus on is the fact that I was unfortunately running in L1, then [b]YOU MISSED THE POINT[/b]. I usually don't run in L1. As anyone who knows me will tell you, I pretty much detest the whole idea of a ladies class (hence the [b]"stupid win"[/b] comment).

    Also, I was at the events in question, and I doubt if you were. I've been doing this long enough to be more than aware of the fact that the conditions may be different. In the case of the ProFinale, they weren't.

    The point of the post was that the Impreza, from this drivers' point of view -- and sorry if it's tainted because of the class I was running, it wasn't totally my idea -- is not the overdog a lot of whiners tend to think it is. They see someone going fast in the car that they never much paid attention to before, or someone they don't know, and so automatically, the line of thinking isn't, "Dang, good driver," it's, "The car must be an overdog." In other words, if you'd actually read my reply, you would have noticed that the point was that I agreed with you about the Impreza [b]not[/b] being an overdog.

    Karen Kraus
    1996 Camaro Z28 1LE (FS34) -- please note the distinct lack of an [b]L[/b] SCCAForums Image [url="http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk wrote:
    http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk[/URL]

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    "You never get away, you only get someplace else" -- Lovka's Dilemma

    [This message has been edited by CamaroFS34 (edited January 02, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by CamaroFS34 (edited January 02, 2001).]
    Davard
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    02 Jan 2001 10:09 PM
    I am profoundly sorry if you misinterpreted my comments. I did not mean to imply that your driving skills were anything less than first rate. That you can go from driving a big RWD car on race tires and then win in a completely different type of car running on street tires speaks volumes about your ability.

    I agree with you that your win in the final, combined with Eric's 3rd place, shows that your driving ability was what allowed you to win.

    Again, I have absolutely no doubt that you a great driver. My only point was that conditions vary, and that it was unfair (even to your co-driver) to directly compare times between STS and L1 at the Pros. The difference between running in the first group vs running in the 7th group can often have large differences in times, similar to the difference in times between morning and afternoon runs, especially for those groups that run in the 1st groups.

    And no, I wasn't at either Harrisburg or the Finale in Kansas, but I competed in STS at three other Pros, and was drawing from my experiences there as well as times from other events.

    I am indeed thankful that you ran in STS at those Pros, as it kept Renee Eady (also an excellent driver) from just walking away with everything due to her being the only driver to take advantage of what you admit was a ridiculous PAX.

    So, in conclusion, I'm sorry you misunderstood the intent of my original comment. ( SCCAForums ImageDid I mention I thought you are indeed a very capable driver, well deserving the Pro Finale win? SCCAForums Image)

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    David Avard
    '90 Mazda Protege LX
    rosss
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    03 Jan 2001 04:04 PM
    Karen, thanks for the clarification about the SE-R and Subie AWD in STS. Just out of curiousity, do you (or anybody else) know why the rule was written in such a way to exclude Subarus with auto trannies? Not that I have one, I'm just curious how all this stuff works and gets decided.

    Oh, and nobody answered me about when the displacement limit was upped... Was that at the same time?

    Sean
    8Complex
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    03 Jan 2001 04:51 PM
    ROFL

    Hey Pete, at least you don't have to worry about me beating you again next year. SCCAForums Image
    Davard
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    03 Jan 2001 05:00 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by rosss:
    [b]Just out of curiousity, do you (or anybody else) know why the rule was written in such a way to exclude Subarus with auto trannies? Not that I have one, I'm just curious how all this stuff works and gets decided.

    Oh, and nobody answered me about when the displacement limit was upped... Was that at the same time?

    Sean[/b]


    I don't think that the auto Subarus were being singled out. I think that the SEB just wanted to limit the LSD-type to viscous only.

    The displacement and LSD rules came about with the 1999 rules, along with the creation of the street tire class (in 1998, ST was a race tire class).




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    David Avard
    '90 Mazda Protege LX
    CamaroFS34
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    03 Jan 2001 06:56 PM
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Davard:
    [b]Again, I have absolutely no doubt that you a great driver.[/b]

    Well... "decent" driver maybe, great's pushing it (I'm very hard on myself)... but apology accepted.

    [QUOTE][b] My only point was that conditions vary, and that it was unfair (even to your co-driver) to directly compare times between STS and L1 at the Pros. The difference between running in the first group vs running in the 7th group can often have large differences in times, similar to the difference in times between morning and afternoon runs, especially for those groups that run in the 1st groups.[/b]
    Actually, L1 at the Harrisburg Pro and Finale ran as group 4, so it wasn't that far distant, not like it would have been last year. Oh, jeez, if L1 was running last, I would have brought my Camaro to Harrisburg and run FS on street tires! No way I was going through that again after my 7PM runs in '97!


    [QUOTE][b]I am indeed thankful that you ran in STS at those Pros, as it kept Renee Eady (also an excellent driver) from just walking away with everything due to her being the only driver to take advantage of what you admit was a ridiculous PAX.[/b]
    I just felt bad because I really felt like I was taking away from some really good drivers simply by running an STS car. Well... to a point. There were a few people I didn't mind winning over. SCCAForums Image I don't know if you read the ProFinale article in SportsCar, but I honestly have more fun running FS than L1, or any ladies class for that matter.

    [QUOTE][b]Did I mention I thought you are indeed a very capable driver, well deserving the Pro Finale win? SCCAForums Image)
    [/b]
    I think maybe you did... SCCAForums Image

    Karen Kraus
    1996 Camaro Z28 1LE (FS34) [url="http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk wrote:
    http://www.erols.com/kiirenza/trisk[/URL]

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    "You never get away, you only get someplace else" -- Lovka's Dilemma

    [This message has been edited by CamaroFS34 (edited January 04, 2001).]
    AliBen
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    03 Jan 2001 08:40 PM
    i still believe tht DRVR is most important
    factor...not the car if they are relatively(sp?) the same.
    i (impreza) am beaten quite often my a 92 civic si---my rival in the class.
    j.b. has been autoX'ng for 3 years
    i have been autoX'ng for only 1 1/2 seasons.
    steven
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