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Any hope at all?

My DSP days are just about over, and I would really like to put a set of light wheels with some Hoosiers and go play with my M roadster.  However, I have an Elise and 2 GT3s local to me, and the question is am I going to get killed?  For the sake of argument lets say I can drive as well as any of the drivers in the other cars.  3100lbs, 330hp, 260ft-lbs, rwd seems alright on paper although I know the GT3 has another 60 hp on me and virtually no weight difference.

I realize I wont win US nationals in the car but is this a really really bad idea?

-Mark     
 

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lowside67:

Any hope at all?

My DSP days are just about over, and I would really like to put a set of light wheels with some Hoosiers and go play with my M roadster.  However, I have an Elise and 2 GT3s local to me, and the question is am I going to get killed?  For the sake of argument lets say I can drive as well as any of the drivers in the other cars.  3100lbs, 330hp, 260ft-lbs, rwd seems alright on paper although I know the GT3 has another 60 hp on me and virtually no weight difference.

I realize I wont win US nationals in the car but is this a really really bad idea?

-Mark     
 

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Stuart F. Maxcy
------ ------ -----
SS 188
TEXAS REGION

2005 Southwest Solo Divsional Champion
AS (C4 ZO7)
2006 Southwest Solo Divisional Champion
SS (Porsche GT3)

It's a great car and would be fun to campaign locally, but my guess is that it's more like the Cayman S and the non-Z06 C5.  Great cars, fun to drive, but out gunned by the current top SS cars.  We'll see though, I have a local one being prepped to compete with me this year in NNJR.

Good luck and have fun!

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

Typical BMW... no camber and skinny wheels.  It doesn't have a chance in hell.

 

Seems like we need a class in between the very-successful AS and SS. 

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John Vitamvas
'04 Z06
'00 Boxster S (For Sale)

lowside67:

3100lbs, 330hp, 260ft-lbs, rwd seems alright on paper although I know the GT3 has another 60 hp on me and virtually no weight difference.-Mark 

3,100 pounds is the same weight as a Z06, too (405 hp, 400 torque). Sorry it would be a heavy also ran. Fun car for the street, though.

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Matt Murray

I am perfectly capable of learning from my mistakes. I will surely learn a great deal today.

John V:

Seems like we need a class in between the very-successful AS and SS. 

+1...I think it would be interesting to juggle some things around in the fastest classes to provide some more choices...maybe lose 1 of DS/GS and reshuffle the SS/AS/BS landscape by adding a class?

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Bryan
2008 Corvette Z51
SS #TBD

Agreed.  I wrote a letter to the SEB supporting a new class.  Too many great, affordable cars without a class to play in. 

NoCones:

John V:

Seems like we need a class in between the very-successful AS and SS. 

+1...I think it would be interesting to juggle some things around in the fastest classes to provide some more choices...maybe lose 1 of DS/GS and reshuffle the SS/AS/BS landscape by adding a class?

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Jer
1993 MR2 #196 ES
2005 Lotus Elise (retired)
1999 Dodge 4X4 tow vehicle
1993 Miata (just tired)
1987 Corolla Lemons car
1984 Citation Lemons car

Surferjer:

Agreed.  I wrote a letter to the SEB supporting a new class.  Too many great, affordable cars without a class to play in. 

NoCones:

John V:

Seems like we need a class in between the very-successful AS and SS. 

+1...I think it would be interesting to juggle some things around in the fastest classes to provide some more choices...maybe lose 1 of DS/GS and reshuffle the SS/AS/BS landscape by adding a class?

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Stuart F. Maxcy
------ ------ -----
SS 188
TEXAS REGION

2005 Southwest Solo Divsional Champion
AS (C4 ZO7)
2006 Southwest Solo Divisional Champion
SS (Porsche GT3)

StuMax:

Surferjer:

Agreed. I wrote a letter to the SEB supporting a new class. Too many great, affordable cars without a class to play in.

NoCones:

John V:

Seems like we need a class in between the very-successful AS and SS.

+1...I think it would be interesting to juggle some things around in the fastest classes to provide some more choices...maybe lose 1 of DS/GS and reshuffle the SS/AS/BS landscape by adding a class?

I don't think SCCA is going to do anything that might even think about messing with the 3 of the most entered stock classes in SOLO right now.

I *think* what folks are suggesting is to make a class for the "tweener" cars, rather than totally reshuffle the deck.  In other words, it shouldn't upset the top cars in the classes as they currently sit, but should allow some of the "also rans" to join the mix.

Jonathan Roberts
 

jorober5:

StuMax:

Surferjer:

Agreed. I wrote a letter to the SEB supporting a new class. Too many great, affordable cars without a class to play in.

NoCones:

John V:

Seems like we need a class in between the very-successful AS and SS.

+1...I think it would be interesting to juggle some things around in the fastest classes to provide some more choices...maybe lose 1 of DS/GS and reshuffle the SS/AS/BS landscape by adding a class?

I don't think SCCA is going to do anything that might even think about messing with the 3 of the most entered stock classes in SOLO right now.

I *think* what folks are suggesting is to make a class for the "tweener" cars, rather than totally reshuffle the deck.  In other words, it shouldn't upset the top cars in the classes as they currently sit, but should allow some of the "also rans" to join the mix.

The problem with a tweener class, as I currently see it, is that you'll be left with 5-6 cars in SS, and you'll be moving the rest down to the new class.  How many AS cars would you move up...GXP, new s2000??? 

We already know the C5 non-Z06 is faster than the C4 from history so do you leave the C4 in AS or obsolete it by moving it to the new class too?  What's that leave us with, maybe another 5-6 cars in the new class?  I suppose this would be OK if you create another class with 70 national entries in Topeka.  But if the C5 non-Z06 is dominant then you'd have a popular, mass produced car with lots of competitors in a spec class.  Not really a bad thing if it increases participation.

But would this force AS to take a step backwards at a time when it's growing too?

Maybe SCCA should create a "trial" class for 2-3 years and see what happens to participation with a tweener class. That could possibly work. Didn't they do this with STS and all the other ST_ classes?

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

TedDBere:

The problem with a tweener class, as I currently see it, is that you'll be left with 5-6 cars in SS, and you'll be moving the rest down to the new class.  How many AS cars would you move up...GXP, new s2000??? 

We already know the C5 non-Z06 is faster than the C4 from history so do you leave the C4 in AS or obsolete it by moving it to the new class too?  What's that leave us with, maybe another 5-6 cars in the new class?  I suppose this would be OK if you create another class with 70 national entries in Topeka.  But if the C5 non-Z06 is dominant then you'd have a popular, mass produced car with lots of competitors in a spec class.  Not really a bad thing if it increases participation.

But would this force AS to take a step backwards at a time when it's growing too?

Maybe SCCA should create a "trial" class for 2-3 years and see what happens to participation with a tweener class. That could possibly work. Didn't they do this with STS and all the other ST_ classes?

I don't see leaving SS with 5-6 cars as a bad thing at all...there aren't any more than 5-6 cars seriously campaigned at this point anyway.

Dropping cars like the Z4-based M coupe/roadster, Cayman S, Boxster S, non-Z06 C5, and non-turbo 996/997 911's into an SS/AS tweener class would be pretty interesting, imo...every one of those cars would get serious consideration for my next ride for sure, while right now, I probably wouldn't consider any of them.  It would only be 5-6 cars, but realistically, no stock class has more than about 5-6 desirable cars in it at any given time.

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Bryan
2008 Corvette Z51
SS #TBD

TedDBere:

The problem with a tweener class, as I currently see it, is that you'll be left with 5-6 cars in SS, and you'll be moving the rest down to the new class.  How many AS cars would you move up...GXP, new s2000??? 

We already know the C5 non-Z06 is faster than the C4 from history so do you leave the C4 in AS or obsolete it by moving it to the new class too?  What's that leave us with, maybe another 5-6 cars in the new class? 

As others have stated, I think most people conceive of the tweener class as a home for cars that are currently in the bottom half of of SS.  There would be few if any cars moved from the current AS, which is showing itself to be very healthy as measured by both participation and car variety. 

I'm not sure why you're implying a class with five or six competitive cars would be a failure considering that most of today's stock classes only have two or three...

PedalFaster:

I'm not sure why you're implying a class with five or six competitive cars would be a failure considering that most of today's stock classes only have two or three...

You and NoCones make a good point.  So should SCCA create a "trial class" for 2008, 2009 and 2010?  Call it TS for "tweener stock"....

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

TedDBere:

You and NoCones make a good point.  So should SCCA create a "trial class" for 2008, 2009 and 2010?  Call it TS for "tweener stock"....

 

I am pretty sure it is too late for 2008 but I definitely think a provisional class like this should be created for 2009.  I would either go there or go to something in ST*.  My choice for this class would be a 99-00 Corvette FRC.

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Keith
2008 Honda S2000

NoCones:

I don't see leaving SS with 5-6 cars as a bad thing at all...there aren't any more than 5-6 cars seriously campaigned at this point anyway.

Dropping cars like the Z4-based M coupe/roadster, Cayman S, Boxster S, non-Z06 C5, and non-turbo 996/997 911's into an SS/AS tweener class would be pretty interesting, imo...every one of those cars would get serious consideration for my next ride for sure, while right now, I probably wouldn't consider any of them.  It would only be 5-6 cars, but realistically, no stock class has more than about 5-6 desirable cars in it at any given time.

I don't see anything bad about that either.

Your list of cars is the same as what I was thinking except I'd include the FD RX-7 TT as well. 

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John Vitamvas
'04 Z06
'00 Boxster S (For Sale)

I agree with yor list what a great bunch of affordable  really fun cars( especally used  versions) that can also be driven daily on the street in competitive form. I disagree about another new class though. They are all over 3100 lbs. and run mid  5 sec. 0-60 times . They should have never been in SS with 0-60 low 4 sec cars. They could easily run in B stock. It seems once  a car is classed it is never moved down  ( like the Cayman S,Z4 M) despite any evidence it is classed wrong. What a waste.

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Doug Maxcy
Viper SRT-10 , SS 88
ASP Nat. Champion, JPS Lotus Europa

I like this idea as well.

 

Move the current cream of SS (Both ZO6's, Elise, GT3) up a new class called XS or Xtreme Stock or Xtra Stock, well maybe not the last one. 

Leave the everything else in SS as it sits.  I think that class with the cars that everyone else mentoined would be packed full at Nats.  I know I would consider several of those options

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Jeremy Foley
2001 Subaru 2.5RS Retired G-Stock Autocross Beast
2003 Evo 8 Modded Daily Driver
2004 RX-8 Current Borrowed B-Stock Killer

President
Team if you can't beat them-Join them!

D.W. Maxcy:

I agree with yor list what a great bunch of affordable really fun cars( especally used versions) that can also be driven daily on the street in competitive form. I disagree about another new class though. They are all over 3100 lbs. and run mid 5 sec. 0-60 times . They should have never been in SS with 0-60 low 4 sec cars. They could easily run in B stock. It seems once a car is classed it is never moved down ( like the Cayman S,Z4 M) despite any evidence it is classed wrong. What a waste.

Uh, there's very clear data demonstrating that most of the cars being discussed here (C5 FRC, Cayman S, FD RX-7) would beat the current A Stock, and murder B Stock.

Edit: The C4 Corvette is still the fastest or very close to the fastest car in A Stock, but throughout the late 90's, the FD RX-7 consistently beat it.  In the early 00's, the C5 FRC showed itself to be faster than the RX-7.  It follows that either car would beat the current A Stock by some margin.  As for the Cayman S, the evidence is a bit less clear cut, but the 986 Boxster S is still a strong car for A Stock, and the Cayman has 40 more horsepower, wider wheels, and a stiffer chassis.  None of these belong in the current AS or BS.

PedalFaster:

Edit: The C4 Corvette is still the fastest or very close to the fastest car in A Stock, but throughout the late 90's, the FD RX-7 consistently beat it.  In the early 00's, the C5 FRC showed itself to be faster than the RX-7.  It follows that either car would beat the current A Stock by some margin.  As for the Cayman S, the evidence is a bit less clear cut, but the 986 Boxster S is still a strong car for A Stock, and the Cayman has 40 more horsepower, wider wheels, and a stiffer chassis.  None of these belong in the current AS or BS.

Right.  Adding a class (or doing a major shuffle all the way down the class structure) is the only way to provide a place for those cars to play without decimating the two most popular classes at nationals in 2007 - SS (67 drivers) and AS (60 drivers).

 

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John Vitamvas
'04 Z06
'00 Boxster S (For Sale)

I dont think that the m coupe, 987 boxster s or cayman s would upset the applecart in AS.  The cayman s only beat AS in 2006 at 1 event and not by much.  I've had my s2000 run against 987 boxsters and m coupe and i dont think that they would destroy the class.  I think it would be a good fight.