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conekiller2:

I dont think that the m coupe, 987 boxster s or cayman s would upset the applecart in AS.  The cayman s only beat AS in 2006 at 1 event and not by much.  I've had my s2000 run against 987 boxsters and m coupe and i dont think that they would destroy the class.  I think it would be a good fight.

 

The problem is that is a very big risk to take with the 2nd largest class at Nationals.  Both the 987 Boxster/ Cayman S and the Z4 M coupe are a bit more expensive than anything else in AS right now with maybe the exception of the brand new STi and Evo.  Putting them there is a risk because if they dominate you now have one or two cars that are more expensive and faster than the other 4 or so cars that were competitive before hand.  JMHO

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Keith
2008 Honda S2000

The tweener class should just be the bottom half of SS.  Why mess with AS?  And in essence you're not messing with SS either.  It just opens up another class for a wide variety of popular sports cars to play in.  I argued this and an SEB member came back with the issue of PAX and was there room for a tweener class.  My answer is yes, there is room.  There has to be.  These cars aren't fast enough for SS and too fast for AS.  So there's room. 

 The tweener class (although I also argued in my letter that top SS cars go to XS leaving the tweener class SS)  will also give the SEB/SAC another place to put new cars coming out.  What if the GXP dominates As next year and cuts participation in half?  Then you could move it to SS and it might still be competitive. 

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Jer
1993 MR2 #196 ES
2005 Lotus Elise (retired)
1999 Dodge 4X4 tow vehicle
1993 Miata (just tired)
1987 Corolla Lemons car
1984 Citation Lemons car

in terms of cost they are not too far out.  You can get a cayman s for low 40's now and bmw is practically giving away m coupe's with upto 7500 in factory incentives.  2005 boxster s is going for under 40 already.  So the cost is very similar to buying a new sti, evo, s2000.  By the way for this year it seems like dealers are already blowing out s2000 cr so if anyone thinks this is the car to have then now is the time to buy, local dealer has one without ac or radio for under 34k

conekiller2:

The cayman s only beat AS in 2006 at 1 event and not by much.

Donnie and GH are very straightforward when asked that they never got their Cayman S figured out in 2006.  An alternative data point is Matthew Dahn, who trophied at Nationals in 2007 in a base Cayman with no mods, the narrower 18" wheels, and without the performance options.

conekiller2:

  I've had my s2000 run against 987 boxsters and m coupe and i dont think that they would destroy the class. 

That data point's useless unless you tell us who was driving each car, and how well prepped they were.  Even then, local event results are only moderately useful since most people leave a lot on the table at local events.

How good an autocross car the Cayman S is is admittedly still a bit ambiguous, but I don't think you'll find many takers for the argument that it fits in the current A Stock.

conekiller2:

in terms of cost they are not too far out.  You can get a cayman s for low 40's  2005 boxster s is going for under 40 already.

That's great, except for the fact that the optimal autocross configuration is a Cayman S with the optional PASM magnetic suspension (a non-retrofittable option) and the PCCB ceramic brakes (very rare, and retrofittable only at a five figure cost).  The Boxster, in addition to being less stiff, didn't get the significantly more powerful 3.4L engine until 2007.  So it's a red herring to say that there are 987S's on the market for under $40k, since they aren't optioned the way that autocrossers will want them.  Also, even if they were -- considering that the top three cars in A Stock are available for under $10k (C4 Corvette), $20k (S2000), and $30k (Solstice), I'm not sure how you can argue that $40k isn't "too far out".  $10000 more than the next most expensive car sounds pretty far out to me.

 

You can not argue the AX option issue both ways.Cost? I just found a Z4 M for $36k in Corpus Christi,,You say the  Boxster and Cayman have to have ceramic brakes and electric adj. shocks to be competitive and that makes it expensive.  NOT TRUE!  That is just  Porsche  driver " Headgames" They stop just fine and the stock shocks are great.   The A Stock C4s your talking about for  $10,000.00 are not what runs in A stock . Those cars has  Blue printed engines , Penske shocks,and a very rare Z07 options, a true "Trailer Queen" C4 that is not to be bought for  close to $10k.Try to find an AS Solstice with the racing package that you Do Need for $ 30K. Cost is not the problem for these cars.  You guys are right, they do need to resort SS, AS, BS  and give some of the other cars a chance but not add still another class.

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Doug Maxcy
Viper SRT-10 , SS 88
ASP Nat. Champion, JPS Lotus Europa

or add another stock class and take away some undersubscribed class.  {whistling}

 Stock classes are popular ways to play because there's a limit to what you can or must do to have a competitive car.  That is why there is far more National drivers in stock classes than in Mod or SP classes.  Adding another stock class would probably generate a lot of interest and there would be a huge variety of marques in the class.

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Jer
1993 MR2 #196 ES
2005 Lotus Elise (retired)
1999 Dodge 4X4 tow vehicle
1993 Miata (just tired)
1987 Corolla Lemons car
1984 Citation Lemons car

D.W. Maxcy:

You can not argue the AX option issue both ways.Cost? I just found a Z4 M for $36k in Corpus Christi,,You say the  Boxster and Cayman have to have ceramic brakes and electric adj. shocks to be competitive and that makes it expensive.  NOT TRUE!  That is just  Porsche  driver " Headgames" They stop just fine and the stock shocks are great.   The A Stock C4s your talking about for  $10,000.00 are not what runs in A stock . Those cars has  Blue printed engines , Penske shocks,and a very rare Z07 options, a true "Trailer Queen" C4 that is not to be bought for  close to $10k.Try to find an AS Solstice with the racing package that you Do Need for $ 30K. Cost is not the problem for these cars.  You guys are right, they do need to resort SS, AS, BS  and give some of the other cars a chance but not add still another class.

 

Headgames?  The ceramic brakes save, what, 15lbs per corner?  I think most stock-class autocrossers would agree that a car is classed assuming it is equipped with its best equipment.  A Cayman S without the ceramic brakes would be without question a top-tier AS car.  And therein lies the problem.  Nevermind that Porsche keeps upping the horsepower of the Cayman and Boxster, so you'd have to buy the latest car.. which gets expensive. 

pedalfaster:

An alternative data point is Matthew Dahn, who trophied at Nationals in 2007 in a base Cayman with no mods, the narrower 18" wheels, and without the performance options.

Mike and Matt did have the GT3 front bar on the Cayman, Steve.

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John Vitamvas
'04 Z06
'00 Boxster S (For Sale)

D.W. Maxcy:

You can not argue the AX option issue both ways.Cost? You say the Boxster and Cayman have to have ceramic brakes and electric adj. shocks to be competitive and that makes it expensive. NOT TRUE! The A Stock C4s your talking about for $10,000.00 are not what runs in A stock . Those cars has Blue printed engines , Penske shocks,and a very rare Z07 options, a true "Trailer Queen" C4 that is not to be bought for close to $10k.Try to find an AS Solstice with the racing package that you Do Need for $ 30K. Cost is not the problem for these cars.

Huh?  You say I should believe your cheap Cayman price because you don't need the 20 extra horsepower, 60 pound unsprung / rotating weight savings, or upgraded shocks, then you say you shouldn't believe my cheap Corvette price because Corvettes need motor and suspension upgrades, then you say that *I'm* arguing the issue both ways?!?  Both the Corvette and the Cayman need some specific options or modifications to be optimally competitive.  The difference is that, after that's done, the Corvette have cost (being pessimistic here) $20000, while the Cayman will have cost (being optimistic here) $50000.  Do you not consider a $30000 price difference to be significant?

Incidentally, a Solstice GXP Z0K can be had for $25k for the GXP plus around a grand for the Z0K suspension parts -- at most half of what a correctly optioned used Cayman S would cost.

With respect, I don't think you're very familiar with the Cayman and Boxster, and are consequently basing your arguments on flawed assumptions.  (Edit: Don't you think it's the slightest bit odd that you're arguing with two guys who have run Boxsters nationally about what it takes to prep a Boxster for autocross?)

John V:

Mike and Matt did have the GT3 front bar on the Cayman, Steve.

Thanks -- I stand corrected.

PedalFaster:

With respect, I don't think you're very familiar with the Cayman and Boxster, and are consequently basing your arguments on flawed assumptions.  (Edit: Don't you think it's the slightest bit odd that you're arguing with two guys who have run Boxsters nationally about what it takes to prep a Boxster for autocross?)

With respect....if you dont know who your talking to....don't make bold assumptions! Doug has run a Boxster S, and a C4 ZO7 Nationally as have I.

Just because you prep and run Boxsters nationally doesn't mean you do it well or have the slightest idea of what your talking about!

Don't you find it the slightest bit odd that you are arguing with a guy that has prepped both a C4 and a Boxster S???? 

And I don't know where your getting your GXP prices....if the title is from New Orleans it might not be that good of a buy....

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Stuart F. Maxcy
------ ------ -----
SS 188
TEXAS REGION

2005 Southwest Solo Divsional Champion
AS (C4 ZO7)
2006 Southwest Solo Divisional Champion
SS (Porsche GT3)

Around here in Charlotte, there are GXP's sitting on all of the lots locally that can be had below MSRP.. and like Stephen has said, for $1k you can retrofit Z0K package.  You can get one brand new for about $29k or less and used one's are available too.  There's also '91 Corvette z07 that a friend of mine is selling with Konis, big bar with only 67k on it and I know he wants about $12k.  - AB 

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'08 Z51 SS Corvette - WTF? (Thanks Bryan!)
'06 Chrysler Crossfire (retired in '08)
'04 RX-8 #87 BS (retired in '07)
'01 Celica GTS #193 STS (retired in '05)

I am sorry !!!!!  To be talking to such experts on Boxsters.  I missed seeing you on the grid at Nationals in 2005 when we ran a Boxters S in A stock, And a C4 at three of the  2005 National Tours.  I am sure you were there. I just don't remember your cars or you !.     My Mistake.      If you  think those ceramic  brakes make or break a car as an Autox  winner ,         well just Zip that Genuine Porsche Jacket up as Tight as you can, and *** in your hat..... We have run GT3 s  for two years now at Nationals and at a bunch of the National Tours with and without  Ceramic brakes and they don't make a  bit of difference except in your head. ( and you Genuine Porsche Wallet.)     But you guys know what your talking about so I going to Zip up my National Champion Jacket and mind my own business.  I obviously don't know what what the Hell I am talking about.

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Doug Maxcy
Viper SRT-10 , SS 88
ASP Nat. Champion, JPS Lotus Europa

Hey Doug,

Curious why you chose a Viper for SS?  The GT3 seems like an awfully good choice?

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--Jason Rhoades

StuMax:

With respect....if you dont know who your talking to....don't make bold assumptions! Doug has run a Boxster S, and a C4 ZO7 Nationally as have I.

Fair enough -- it wasn't evident from his posts that he had any Boxster knowledge, but maybe he's just keeping it well hidden. 

StuMax:

And I don't know where your getting your GXP prices....if the title is from New Orleans it might not be that good of a buy....

You don't have to look very far -- there are plenty of GXPs available on eBay right now, including one listed in the 22s, and another in the 23s -- before the haggling begins.

D.W. Maxcy:

If you think those ceramic brakes make or break a car as an Autox winner , well just Zip that Genuine Porsche Jacket up as Tight as you can, and *** in your hat..... We have run GT3 s for two years now at Nationals and at a bunch of the National Tours with and without Ceramic brakes and they don't make a bit of difference except in your head.

If that's true, then put your money where your mouth is and bolt a 15 pound weight to each of your Viper's wheels at all of your events next year to prove your point.

Edit: P.S. - Assume you guys are right for a second, and that none of the Cayman's extra stiffness, nor its extra 15 hp and 15 lb. ft of torque over the '05 Boxster S, nor the 60 pounds of rotating and unsprung weight that PCCB saves, nor the trick shocks make any difference at all in autocross performance.  Can you find me a '05 Boxster S that's not significantly more expensive than a C4 Corvette?  I would love to have one.

P.P.S. - Original poster, sorry your thread's been so thoroughly ruined.  

Hi Jason .Because as you know Jason ,(I know you got one)   Vipers don't care about 15 lbs anywhere or much else really,they just don't care. We just got tired of all the Porsche club Mentallity, everybody an expert,overdog GT3  bull..... we ran into around the country /  It took Ian Stewart how many years to win SS in it?  and He is a great driver and that was a really nice set up GT3 . The GT3 is a nice car. If I was going to run laps around a track ,thats the car.  It is not a killer autox car however.(Pro solo yes. ) but that is not what we are doing. The rear engine zigs but it does not zig zag zig worth  a flip.(as in a 10 cone slalom)  It has horsepower but only when it is" on the cam" and nothing if you lift and ask for it again. Very nice and proper, easy to handle, the perfect date.     The Vipers that girl you really wish you had taken out,.... you know the the one that dances on the pole.

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Doug Maxcy
Viper SRT-10 , SS 88
ASP Nat. Champion, JPS Lotus Europa

D.W. Maxcy:

The GT3 is a nice car.  The rear engine zigs but it does not zig zag zig worth  a flip.(as in a 10 cone slalom)  It has horsepower but only when it is" on the cam" and nothing if you lift and ask for it again. Very nice and proper, easy to handle, the perfect date.     The Vipers that girl you really wish you had taken out,.... you know the the one that dances on the pole.

And while the prim and proper GT3 guys are shelling out $$$ to keep their girls with them, and the clown shoe drivers are trying to hang on for dear life - drunk with horsepower and dreaming about the pole-dancer they wished they had with them, the old C5Z guys are taking the best girl home...lol.  I love the tweener cars, and spent three years driving one wishing it could compete with the top dogs, but alas the writing was on the wall.

Imagine, there were 33,000 base C5s built each year of production, '97-'04.  Most of them weekend drivers and garage queens.  For $20k you could be competing in a fully prepped ride, in a faster class than AS, and winning!  Add to the base C5 the Cayman S, Boxster S, M-Coupe, RX7 TT and maybe the GXP if it turns out to dominate AS and hold on to your hats! 

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Ted

2004 Z16/Z06 SS

TedDBere:

Imagine, there were 33,000 base C5s built each year of production, '97-'04.  Most of them weekend drivers and garage queens.  For $20k you could be competing in a fully prepped ride, in a faster class than AS, and winning!  Add to the base C5 the Cayman S, Boxster S, M-Coupe, RX7 TT and maybe the GXP if it turns out to dominate AS and hold on to your hats! 

This came up a few years ago, and at the time the SEB pushed back for several reasons, including a) the risk of three classes being dominated by three generations of Corvette (A Stock by the C4, Tweener Stock by the base C5, and Super Stock by the C5 Z06) and b) their reluctance to split up the fairly similar base C5 and C5 Z06. 

One could argue now that neither the C4 nor the C5 Z06 dominate their classes like they did a few years ago.  Alternately, if you have something in for the C4, you could argue for it to be moved to Tweener Stock.  Discuss (and consider addressing this in any letter that you write to the SEB).

D.W. Maxcy:

Hi Jason .Because as you know Jason ,(I know you got one)   Vipers don't care about 15 lbs anywhere or much else really,they just don't care. We just got tired of all the Porsche club Mentallity, everybody an expert,overdog GT3  bull..... we ran into around the country /  It took Ian Stewart how many years to win SS in it?  and He is a great driver and that was a really nice set up GT3 . The GT3 is a nice car. If I was going to run laps around a track ,thats the car.  It is not a killer autox car however.(Pro solo yes. ) but that is not what we are doing. The rear engine zigs but it does not zig zag zig worth  a flip.(as in a 10 cone slalom)  It has horsepower but only when it is" on the cam" and nothing if you lift and ask for it again. Very nice and proper, easy to handle, the perfect date.     The Vipers that girl you really wish you had taken out,.... you know the the one that dances on the pole.

So you guys really think that 60lbs of extra rotating mass won't hurt a Cayman?   It has nothing to do wihth any "Porsche club Mentality (sic)"  and it has nothing to do with stopping power.  It has everything to do with the fact that the Cayman S isn't that powerful, it doesn't have much torque, and minimizing weight (especially rotating weight) is going to help the car.  I don't know anything about the super-magic-tronic shocks but I would think the rotating mass savings from the fancy brakes would be something I would want if I were prepping the car.  Maybe a Viper isn't affected by the extra weight as much.  It's plausible. 

 

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John Vitamvas
'04 Z06
'00 Boxster S (For Sale)

John V:

So you guys really think that 60lbs of extra rotating mass won't hurt a Cayman?  

 

I'm just a noob around these parts, but I think that where the 60lbs of extra rotating mass is located is important.  If its placed closer to the center of rotation the force needed to get it spinning should be less than if its further out from the center of rotation. Rotors when compared to a wheel have the majority of their weight much closer