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apailthorp:

Today, I don't think you have many choices for a bar or struts or wheels, so a 330 ZHP (does it have a mandatory sun roof) should be safe for a while.

I dunno about that... I know the track guys are foaming at the mouth over the 135. There will be at least bars and shocks soon, if there aren't already. Not sure about wheels, but what's a few pounds of unsprung weight vs. 85 lb-ft of torque across the band?

IMO people have declared the 330 dead too early for DS.*    Yes, HPT is not as good for open-diff  BMWs, and yes no BMWs have finished high in the ranks since moving there.  BUT...but don't forget two things:

 
1)  The top 3 BMW drivers in 2005 (who finished ahead of the fastest ITR)  all left the class that year.   Where would they have finished at HPT in 06 or 07?     We will never know.

2)  Day 1 in 2005 was run in the POURING RAIN, and the fastest BMW was 0.6 seconds faster than the fastest ITR.   So don't tell me that BMWs cannot compete when grip is reduced.

 
And.... this was a non-ZHP 330i sedan.   The ZHP is (at least on paper) faster.

*For the record, I've never been to HPT, so feel free to ignore everything I say.

rumatt:

IMO people have declared the 330 dead too early for DS.*    Yes, HPT is not as good for open-diff  BMWs, and yes no BMWs have finished high in the ranks since moving there.  BUT...but don't forget two things:

1)  The top 3 BMW drivers in 2005 (who finished ahead of the fastest ITR)  all left the class that year.   Where would they have finished at HPT in 06 or 07?     We will never know.

2)  Day 1 in 2005 was run in the POURING RAIN, and the fastest BMW was 0.6 seconds faster than the fastest ITR.   So don't tell me that BMWs cannot compete when grip is reduced.

And.... this was a non-ZHP 330i sedan.   The ZHP is (at least on paper) faster.

 

*For the record, I've never been to HPT, so feel free to ignore everything I say.

Without ever running there, you're making some broad assumptions.  - AB

CamaroFS34:

mwood:

murph1379:

I guess I don't see why you want to blow up a well-subscribed class that had 5 different cars in the trophies last year.

When was the last time the class was won by anything other than a Type R?

2005. BMW 330Ci. Like the 135i, it's sans LSD.

And the ITRs get scarcer every day, as more and more get stolen and stripped. Sad, but unfortunately very true, and the main reason I didn't jump to buy Stephen Turner's or Alan Pozner's.

Yup GJ Dixon won that war

CamaroFS34:

mwood:

murph1379:

I guess I don't see why you want to blow up a well-subscribed class that had 5 different cars in the trophies last year.

When was the last time the class was won by anything other than a Type R?

2005. BMW 330Ci. Like the 135i, it's sans LSD.

And the ITRs get scarcer every day, as more and more get stolen and stripped. Sad, but unfortunately very true, and the main reason I didn't jump to buy Stephen Turner's or Alan Pozner's.

Yup GJ Dixon won that war in that BMW 330ci

rumatt:

And.... this was a non-ZHP 330i sedan.   The ZHP is (at least on paper) faster.

I'm actually of the opinion that the early non-ZHP 330i's are actually faster, just due to the weight. The later (HID headlights, power seats standard, 18" wheels, etc) ZHP cars weighed in around 150-200lbs heavier than my car at nationals last year, and I didn't have light wheels or exhaust. I don't think that 5 hp or slight gearing change or better steering ratio could make up for that much weight difference.

(not that I have the skillz to prove it...) 

I agree that this is an odd placement.  This is a little like throwing the Shelby GT into ES.  The times may be close on some courses, but you have definite course dependancy issues. 

DS was an interesting class, and will probably continue to be, but I would be a bit hesitant to go out and buy any other DS car at the moment.

Another big buck class now?  Not necessarily, but it is a possibility.

aansorge:

............. 

Another big buck class now?  Not necessarily, but it is a possibility.

I think that's what bothers me the most about this placement. I know we're supposed to make the class faster, but i think it's at the price of the pocket book. Seems that the performance is going up only slightly, but the price to pay is really going up! between these really expensive cars, and the really rare cars, it's becoming increasingly difficult to obtain the car to have. Cars like the regular Mini and the RX-8 are good cars to have as class winners, they are fairly cheap brand new, you don't need some crazy rare model to get the job done right, comes down to the driver. I understand this will be common place in classes like AS, and SS, but do we need to bring this down as low as DS and FS? Once you can buy the car used and the price is more in line with other trophy cars then yea have at it, but right off the block...i disagree.. The TT was originally in BS then got dropped down 2 years ago once it was found to be uncompetitive in BS and would fit nicely with the speed that DS was achieving. Used ones were around 20k for a good one at the time of the move. I think the same fate should happen to more of the cars being classed as overdogs.

It's true you won't see me with my TT in DS anymore. I've now become a car bum living off those more fortunate then I.

I think the dominance of the ITR the last two years is because of driver skill.  I honestly don't think it is necessarily the best car for the class.  I think the MS3, TT, Crossfire are as good as the ITR at HPT, and for ProSolo I'd add the WRX up there too.  If we had more top drivers driving them we might see a different story. 

I don't believe the 135 will dominate in '08, but if we get a high grip surface and/or they can fit bigger tires we may see it out front. 

> 135 Weight 3373

How the eff did they manage to make this car so heavy?  Did they reinforce the frame with recycled Chinese lead toys? 

rbnorton:

> 135 Weight 3373

How the eff did they manage to make this car so heavy?  Did they reinforce the frame with recycled Chinese lead toys? 

Hell, that's lighter than the ZHP! (and is also the stated weight, which BMW measures with something like two passengers and 50lbs in the trunk)

6-cyl motor, 18" wheels, 6-speed transmission, airbags everywhere, sunroof, power leather seats... it all ads up.
 

C&D listed the weight of the ZHP sedan as 3370; I wonder what mine weighs? I can't imagine the typical E46 330i non-ZHP sedan being 150-200lbs lighter -- no chance.  I've weighed my M5 at 3921 lbs back when it was stock while BMW quotes its weight at over 4000.  My ZHP has no sunroof (thankfully, I hate the things) and only two options, Xenons and HK sound.  FWIW, C&D listed the E90 330i at 3450 lbs.

 C&D acceleration times for ZHP vs regular 330i:

               0-60,   100,   1/4

 ZHP         5.6,  15.3,  14.3 @ 97 mph

 E46 330i   6.1,  16.6,  14.8 @ 95 mph

135i           4.7,  11.5,  13.3 @ 106 mph

murph1379:

rbnorton:

> 135 Weight 3373 How the eff did they manage to make this car so heavy?  Did they reinforce the frame with recycled Chinese lead toys? 

Hell, that's lighter than the ZHP! (and is also the stated weight, which BMW measures with something like two passengers and 50lbs in the trunk) 6-cyl motor, 18" wheels, 6-speed transmission, airbags everywhere, sunroof, power leather seats... it all ads up. 

My 330i w/ZHP weighed in the range of 3,430 at HPT in 2006. I was on stock wheels though. Without a slip, the 330i and the 135 will not be competitive. If a 135 tii is made and has a slip, then it would be appropiate for the class. All IMO.

My 2003 non-ZHP 330i sedan was 3250 lbs on the scales in Peru 06.    This was with lightweight 17" wheels.   It has no sunroof and no options except the sports package. 

That's interesting, my 2001 330i w/ sport package & sunroof was 320x at HPT last year. Should be under 3200 this year with light wheels.

It seems the earlier, the lighter. I'm also told the four-doors are actually lighter than the Ci's.  

One reasonable variable between all these weights (besides different scales, unknown calibration, etc) is fluid weight.  The difference between a completely full tank of gas versus one that is nearly empty equates to about 6.2 lbs/gallon, so 16 gallons versus 2 gallons in the tank means about 87 lbs possible difference.  Another one is the washer tank which holds a bit over a gallon I believe which is ~8.34lbs/gallon (assuming its all water, tad lighter if water/alch mix).  Hence it would be easy for weights between two identical cars to be "measured" at 95 lbs difference.

Chuck

CSBM5:

 Hence it would be easy for weights between two identical cars to be "measured" at 95 lbs difference.

Certainly, though at national level competition I would assume most of us are running minimal gas and no or nearly no washer fluid.

I would expect the fluid and scale variation to be within 30-50lbs? 

Anyway, the point is that the later ZHP 330's can weigh upwards of 150+ lbs more than the earlier and non-ZHP models.  

How low on gas can you run without starvation problems under sustained g-loads?  I had starvation problems (in the ZHP) at VIR on South course with less than 1/4 tank of gas (the long and off camber so-named Ditch turn with a B, turn 1 South course).

murph1379:

That's interesting, my 2001 330i w/ sport package & sunroof was 320x at HPT last year. Should be under 3200 this year with light wheels.

It seems the earlier, the lighter. I'm also told the four-doors are actually lighter than the Ci's.  

I think my 325Ci weighed in just under 3200 (automatic, power/heated seats, sunroof, premium package, sport suspension (all coupes), stock M3 18" fronts all around, 1/4tank gas, spare tire).

And for what it is worth, my M3 weighs in only slightly more at about 3260 (SMG, manual cloth seats, sunroof, stock M3 18" rears all around, 1/4 tank, GC coilovers, no spare ).

The Nebulizer:

I think my 325Ci weighed in just under 3200 (automatic, power/heated seats, sunroof, premium package, sport suspension (all coupes), stock M3 18" fronts all around, 1/4tank gas, spare tire).

I'm guessing it being a 325 rather than a 330 helps out somewhat, I know the smaller motor weighs less, though not sure by how much. What year is this car?