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At the Devons tour, I was (IMO of course) getting the short end of the stick.  I need some advise on how to handle this in the future because I know that it will come up again. 

I was the second driver in a two-driver car, my wife was first.  We had our kids with us, so we would swap kids/driving duties.  She would come in from her run, get over to where I was with the kids and I would get back out to the car.  As soon as I got there, I was told 4 cars...  There was no way that it was 5 minutes.  I didn't have time to check anything or cool down the tires.  I took my run when grid told me to go.  One of the kickers was that the car that came in immediately before my wife was also a two driver car in a different class and they were not sent out before me.  Second runs come up, and the same deal - including not sending the second driver car that came in before we did.  There was no way that it was 5 minutes.  I asked grid when they started their clock and if I could see it - he said that he was starting his clock when my wife picked up her time slip at the end of the run (about 200yards away from grid).  I let grid know that the clock starts when the car stops in it's grid spot and not before.  On third runs - the exact some thing.  Not enough time to check pressures and cool the car down.  I was told by grid and by others higher up that it would be corrected for day 2. 

OK, day 2 come around and our grid spots are changed.  But when it comes to the actual running - everything is the same.  Including starting the timer before the car is in grid because "we can't see the car in your grid spot so we start the timer [where they car see the car come off course]."  I get the op-steward and event chair involved.  Grid tells them that they are starting the clock correctly.  The event steward tells me to take the time that I need as long as I don't hold up the event - they said that they talked to grid about it.  Great.  All I wanted was a chance to water down the tires and check pressures.  I figures that all I needed was a couple of cars to go ahead of me.  But my runs come around and sure enough, grid pulls me out at the same time and doesn't give me any time.  After my run, I ask grid about it and said that they were told what I was - give me time but don't hold up the event, but they need to send cars according to their grid sheets.  Which apparently had me going before a car that came in earlier than me... 

What would other people have done?  I'm definitely going to put a timer in the car but what happens when my clock doesn't match grid? 

From the standpoint of event operations, I'm guessing you would have had to simply not leave grid, forfeit your run, lodge a protest, get a provisional rerun at the end of the heat, and sort everything out afterwards.  Risky, but by the rules.  Or take your run on hot tires, lodge a protest and try to get a rerun based on the fact that you weren't granted the mandatory 5 minutes. 

DaveH:

From the standpoint of event operations, I'm guessing you would have had to simply not leave grid, forfeit your run, lodge a protest, get a provisional rerun at the end of the heat, and sort everything out afterwards.  Risky, but by the rules.  Or take your run on hot tires, lodge a protest and try to get a rerun based on the fact that you weren't granted the mandatory 5 minutes. 

Last year at Nats, I was told to go to the line before the results were posted from the 1st run.  I complied but later filed paper when a "mystery cone" suddenly appeared on the late-posted runs.  I don't think I would have "gone for it" on the second run had I known I had a cone on the first.  (Unrelated was the fact that the second run resulted in the "RV-hookup" excursion.).  I technically won the protest but the "penalty" was for Grid/T&S to be reprimanded.  Moreover, I was told (and it's there in print in the back of the results) that I could refuse to leave grid under those circumstances.  And that's exactly what I'll do next time, event delay or not.

--Andy 

PS: What's ironic in Rob's situation is that the five-minute rule was originally instituted to keep two-driver teams from having an advantage with hot tires over a single-driver with cold tires.  Given today's tires, and in anything but the coldest weather, the situation seems to have reversed itself and everyone *wants* their five minutes to cool everything down.  My how things have changed.... 

Andy Hollis:

Moreover, I was told (and it's there in print in the back of the results) that I could refuse to leave grid under those circumstances.  And that's exactly what I'll do next time, event delay or not.

--Andy 

PS: What's ironic in Rob's situation is that the five-minute rule was originally instituted to keep two-driver teams from having an advantage with hot tires over a single-driver with cold tires.  Given today's tires, and in anything but the coldest weather, the situation seems to have reversed itself and everyone *wants* their five minutes to cool everything down.  My how things have changed.... 

I actually thought of your situation...  Only in the heat of battle I thought about having someone stand over by the board to make sure that sheets were posted before I left - hoping to get extra time like that.  But the sweep truck was was already well back from the previous runs for that to work.  

If my only recourse is to sit there until I think that 5 minutes have passed, I can do that.  In the future I'll have a timer to prove I was right. 

The problem is answering the question, "Five minutes from when?" Some grid workers take it as "Five minutes from when the car exits the course to when it comes up to the line again." It sounds like this is the definition your grid workers were following. However, if you look at the other heats, I bet the grid workers in other heats weren't rushing people so much. Additionally, if another two-driver car whose first driver was running before Lori wasn't being sent ahead of you (Rob), that's a problem too.

I had some issues with the timing of the two driver cars at the Atlanta Tour during my heat too, but nothing like what you were saying. I think it comes down to proper spacing of two driver cars within the heat also, and if the chief of grid isn't able to have a say in how cars are gridded to best "split" the group, it becomes more difficult to be equitable. If it's not the chief of grid's "job" to decide how to grid cars (which, ultimately decides the run order for each heat), then whoever does do the grid sheets should bear in mind the two driver cars in each heat, and order the classes in such a way to best leave a natural "split" for the sweep car and the two driver cars.

However, communication is a serious issue, and it sounds like it was the unlying cause of what happened to you, Rob. :( I, personally, would have probably tried to have another person with me in grid to help with tire-spraying and the like, and I would have also tried to talk to the grid chief to find out why it was so imperative to send me out so quickly, as well as why all the two-driver cars weren't being sent in the same order as the first drivers of those cars.

I was working course when this was happening, and I was shocked to see Rob come out like 7 or 8 cars after Lori.  The time was closer to 3 minutes IMHO.  It was a full minute from crossing the line back to your grid spot in Devens.  He got jobbed.  And his pressures after his last run were 50 PSI.    

 I agree with the suggestion to run your own clock and protest if they tried to take your run away. 

CamaroFS34:

The problem is answering the question, "Five minutes from when?" Some grid workers take it as "Five minutes from when the car exits the course to when it comes up to the line again." It sounds like this is the definition your grid workers were following. However, if you look at the other heats, I bet the grid workers in other heats weren't rushing people so much. Additionally, if another two-driver car whose first driver was running before Lori wasn't being sent ahead of you (Rob), that's a problem too.

They weren't rushing other people in my heat.  The car next to us was run after us (3 2 driver cars in SM2) and about 5 CM cars.  They had plenty of time.

CamaroFS34:

However, communication is a serious issue, and it sounds like it was the unlying cause of what happened to you, Rob. :( I, personally, would have probably tried to have another person with me in grid to help with tire-spraying and the like, and I would have also tried to talk to the grid chief to find out why it was so imperative to send me out so quickly, as well as why all the two-driver cars weren't being sent in the same order as the first drivers of those cars.

That was exactly what I did here - on day 2.  I got a couple of guys to help out in grid and I tracked down the op-steward (who happened to be in the next grid directly across from me).  On day 1, when the problem started - I was screwed (and it showed in my times - 2 DNFs and a very slow time).  I was told that I could have "all the time I needed as long as I didn't hold up the event."  To me that meant that grid would run a couple of more cars before me. To them, it meant that I could sit in my grid spot for 10 seconds longer while the car ahead of me got to the line (and then I should rush to the line to not hold up the event). 

If being passive aggressive or filing paper is the only way to get this resolved next time, so be it.

Rob, seems like you got hosed by being rushed. 

Is it possible they didn't send the co-driver of the car in front of you because the first driver got a rerun and the second driver can't go until the first driver waits 5 minutes and completes their first run and then the car requires another 5 minute cool down before the second driver can go out?  I know this happened in the 4th heat on day 1 when, I believe it was 51 csp, got two reruns and had to complete the first drivers second run and the second drivers second run before starting the 4th heat's third runs.

SpyderVenom:

I was told that I could have "all the time I needed as long as I didn't hold up the event."  To me that meant that grid would run a couple of more cars before me. To them, it meant that I could sit in my grid spot for 10 seconds longer while the car ahead of me got to the line (and then I should rush to the line to not hold up the event). 

The grid chief for that event is extremely experienced and knowledgable about his specialty.  But he was having a great deal of problems with the people assigned to grid.  Many of them had NEVER worked grid and he was having to do rushed on-the-job training.  Not a good situation.   It sounds to me like that was a big part of the problem.

IMO, extra effort should be made at big events to recruit people with some kind of experience in a specialty.  To some people working grid is considered "easy".  It ain't.  To deal with newbies to a specialty, training sheets should be handed out similar to what was present in the entry list booklet at Nationals.

CamaroFS34:

The problem is answering the question, "Five minutes from when?"

I might have missed it, but I think there needs to be an official answer to this question.  The issue certainly has come up at Heartland Park, where it can take 2 or so minutes to get back to your grid spot.  That's not much time if you are trying to cool (or change) tires.

For the sake of safety, I think you should have 5 minutes from the time the car gets back to it's grid spot.  This eliminates any advantage for driving too quickly to get back to your spot.  OTOH, it could reward you for dragging your heels on the way back to your spot...

Jonathan Roberts
 

jorober5:

CamaroFS34:

The problem is answering the question, "Five minutes from when?"

 

I might have missed it, but I think there needs to be an official answer to this question.  The issue certainly has come up at Heartland Park, where it can take 2 or so minutes to get back to your grid spot.  That's not much time if you are trying to cool (or change) tires.

For the sake of safety, I think you should have 5 minutes from the time the car gets back to it's grid spot.  This eliminates any advantage for driving too quickly to get back to your spot.  OTOH, it could reward you for dragging your heels on the way back to your spot...

 The answer to that question is right in the supps for the event.

Tour Supps

7. A minimum of five minutes must have elapsed between runs for any car. This includes reruns or runs for another driver of the same car. A grid marshal will be specifically assigned to handle two-driver cars and will keep a time log to assure compliance with the five-minute minimum between runs. The time shall be measured from the time the car returns to grid until the time it leaves the start line.

Let's see if I can answer some questions:

First of all, I am a nationals chief of grid, not at the event in question (whew...I'm safe)

Five minutes from when:  As the rules are written, it is 5 minutes from the time YOU ENTER GRID (not your grid spot)  to the time YOU LEAVE THE LINE for your next run.   That is how it is written, and how I do it.   At nats, if you remember, we had the sign that said "5 minutes starts here) and we had a timer person write down the time every car went by.  This sign was posted right at the entrance to the first grid lane, but if you were in the furthest grid, you got extra drive time.   Then grid then had a solid  time that they could release....well, sorta.   We gave 1 minute to get to the line at HPT, generally.   So it gave most cars 3 minutes or so in their spot.   ALOT of it has to do with the actual order of cars in the grid.   A good chief should have enough room built in for a 5 minute cooldown, but there are always certain class configurations that preclude this.

 How do you handle this:   One, ask the chief of grid to personally time your car, and say that you are getting shafted.   I know  * I * would do it, and I'm pretty sure most others would.   I have seen others declare a mechanical though I personally don't condone this.   But technically, there is nothing in grid they can do.  Rob, you have an excellent idea with a timer, or a stopwatch.  Note the correct time to start it though...when you enter GRID, not your grid spot.

I don't know about results sheets...that is a T&S issue.

Your favorite grid Nazi
 

(Already answered. Slow update.)

I suppose this becomes a matter of making sure the grid chief and the grid workers truly understand the supplemental regulations.  In the "Order of Running Section", it is clearly stated that "A minimum of five minutes must have elapsed between runs for any car....The time shall be measured from the time the car returns to grid until the time it leaves the start line."  The gray area is what point is when "the car returns to grid"?  Is it at the entry of grid?  Is it upon return to the assigned grid space?  My interpretation would be upon entry to grid, where the farthest car from the start line has it's assigned grid space.

I for one would like to see a little more clarification on this one.  Personally, I started doing self-timing from the point where the car passes into the grid area.

This is the 2nd year in a row I've had issues in grid @ Devens... and last year was just me getting a ball busting about parking since I was having more than a little trouble getting into/out of my space and the car itself with the straight in parking.  Glad to see they decided on using angled parking this year--to bad it took an argument to get it to happen.

 But this year was a whole new level of disaster in the 2nd heat.  Apparently all 4 workers had never worked grid before and were doing the best they could.... but the organization-wow.

 We had a 2 driver situation in FSL that was a huge pain in the ass.  Basically they were just following the grid order (which included about 100 FJ's and their assigned grid spots which were empty for no reason).  The result was that the first driver (Marcy) would sit and sit, and sit some more while FJA, SS, and every other class in grid but for BS ran, and then sit some more waiting for more FJ's to run after the sweep.  And when Marcy got back, Heather was rushed in right at 5 minutes.  Same thing happened to the one 2 driver BS car.

 All they needed to do was move the 1st drivers of the one FSL and one BS car to before the sweep.  I made the suggestion, and was told that's up to the Cheif of Grid.  I asked to have it come down.  He never did.  I ended up catching Bill Goodale (always a help) and explaining... he talked to Grid and was told no as that change would result in 3 more issues.  When I asked what he couldn't answer me (as it was what Grid told him).  At which point I told him I'd be forced to call a mechanical for our 2nd driver, which could be avoided if they just moved Marcy's run spot just before the sweep.  FINALLY they relented and did just that.

 After that, one grid worker says to me "boy, that was a lot easier". 

And the topper to it all was when grid was telling Keith Scala he was late and to get up to the line (this is the BS 2-driver car FWIW).  Meanwhile the car wasn't there because his 1st driver was up @ start waiting to run.  The exchange was funny because it showed how unbalanced Grid was with the classes running at the far end of grid. 

 I like going to Devens, and hope it's around next year.  I never have issues other places, and only seem to in Grid in Massachusettes.  Maybe I just get to be an ass there.  Or maybe Grid is always got something goofy going on there.... 

As the grid worker with the clock I want to clarify - 

This situation was brought to my attention after 2nd runs on Sat.  At that time I began making a note of when driver 1 was crossing by the bottom of grid/turning up the row towards the grid spot because I couldn't see when the car was actually in the space.  Driver 2 was sent up to the line (3-4 cars from start) at no less than 5 minutes on my clock, and I showed you the clock that was running!  Maybe you were shorted 30 seconds, but AFAIK the rule is 5 minutes between runs, not parked in grid.  Unfortunately, the "car sender guy" was new and I was busy with mechanicals, re-runs, and other 2 driver cars to be as proactive as maybe I should have been in babysitting you.

On day 2, I was under the impression that the situation was resolved as grid spaces were reassigned to better accommodate you.  After first runs I spoke with the OP and we agreed to be certain you had 5 minutes parked in grid.  At no time was I told to allow you as much time as you want.  For runs 2 and 3 the clock was started when the car was stopped in grid (I had the other worker radio me to be certain the clock wasn't started too soon.)  On the following runs you were sent out on the 5 minute mark by me with clock in hand, which coincided exactly with the same run order as had been used for all earlier runs.

Don't forget to tell the people here that you refused to get in your car at the 5 car warning, or after your 5 minutes parked in grid because you felt you deserved more time - even though you were standing there doing nothing as your tires had already been cooled and pressures set (yes I was paying attention.)  Had you been rushing around trying to accomplish something you might have had more sympathy, as it was you were simply being difficult and holding up the event for no reason. 

I will say that I don't disagree that you were "rushed" and had less time than most other people, and it definitely wasn't the best situation, but nothing "unfair" transpired.  There were other 2 driver cars right before and right after you in grid that didn't have any complaints. 

I ran in heat 3 as a second driver (STS).  Neither of us ever had a problem.  Things ran smoothly except for the one time the sweep car went out too early (before CM instead of after).