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The Nebulizer:

DaveH:

The Nebulizer:

Fastmike:

I think the goal is to "create" another class to increase car choices and hopefully increase participation as a whole.

Is it for the AWD cars or for the XSS cars? Maybe it is for the tweener cars between AS and SS?

FM

My vote is for an AWD class. (I'd like to see something like this in the ST classes too.)

Because the WRX guys would love being dumped into a stock class with the Evo, STi, and GT3.  Yeah, that would work.  Maybe the base Impreza should go there too?

Everyone keeps saying we should segregate the AWD cars, but you end up having to create a whole new batch of classes.  Proposing one AWD class is useless.  It's like saying we should put Miatas and Corvettes in the same class because they're both RWD.

I don't think it would be a class where every AWD car goes, but more like an STi/Evo class - maybe a few other AWD cars could fit in there too. Certainly AWD is a more meaningful destinction than how many seats a car has. 

Bingo. The point is not that, currently, the new STi or new Evo could be an overdog, or that the R32 can't win, or any other short term consideration based on a current manufacturer's offering being competitive in the AWD/rally car type category. The point is to separate out the distinctly different skill set of the 4D, AWD cars and leverage the current, and (in all likelihood) ongoing, popularity of these type cars, in my opinion. Because the current *fill in the blank with your favorite AWD* won't win in a stock, rally car class is an irrelevant argument for not adopting a dedicated class...that would be the same as saying any other class should insure the competitiveness of all potential cars, at all times...hey, if you buy the "wrong" car or get the wrong option package in any stock class, you're out of the hunt...that's the way it is, why should a potential AWD/rally car stock class be any different?

The Nebulizer:

I don't think it would be a class where every AWD car goes, but more like an STi/Evo class - maybe a few other AWD cars could fit in there too. Certainly AWD is a more meaningful destinction than how many seats a car has. 

 As an Evo owner... I'm gonna say no.  I mean, absolutely not.

 As much fun as an AWD stock class would be for me, there is no way participation would justify it. 

 
What happened to classing cars based on times?  Why base classing on # of driven wheels? Why base classing on # of seats?

 

At Nationals last year, six different types of cars finished in the 11 trophy positions in DS (and none of those types of cars won the Pro Solo championship either ).  In GS, two different types of cars (Mini Coopers and Kreimelmeyer Sentra) finished in the trophies.  Wouldn't it, you know, make sense to, you know, move one overdog car up a class to "create" a class with more participation rather than moving several competitive cars from one healthy, diverse class into two different classes?

I can see the blank canvas of the big picture, but the artists forgot the paint.

Pat

mwood:

The Nebulizer:

DaveH:

The Nebulizer:

Fastmike:

I think the goal is to "create" another class to increase car choices and hopefully increase participation as a whole.

Is it for the AWD cars or for the XSS cars? Maybe it is for the tweener cars between AS and SS?

FM

My vote is for an AWD class. (I'd like to see something like this in the ST classes too.)

Because the WRX guys would love being dumped into a stock class with the Evo, STi, and GT3.  Yeah, that would work.  Maybe the base Impreza should go there too?

Everyone keeps saying we should segregate the AWD cars, but you end up having to create a whole new batch of classes.  Proposing one AWD class is useless.  It's like saying we should put Miatas and Corvettes in the same class because they're both RWD.

I don't think it would be a class where every AWD car goes, but more like an STi/Evo class - maybe a few other AWD cars could fit in there too. Certainly AWD is a more meaningful destinction than how many seats a car has. 

Bingo. The point is not that, currently, the new STi or new Evo could be an overdog, or that the R32 can't win, or any other short term consideration based on a current manufacturer's offering being competitive in the AWD/rally car type category. The point is to separate out the distinctly different skill set of the 4D, AWD cars and leverage the current, and (in all likelihood) ongoing, popularity of these type cars, in my opinion. Because the current *fill in the blank with your favorite AWD* won't win in a stock, rally car class is an irrelevant argument for not adopting a dedicated class...that would be the same as saying any other class should insure the competitiveness of all potential cars, at all times...hey, if you buy the "wrong" car or get the wrong option package in any stock class, you're out of the hunt...that's the way it is, why should a potential AWD/rally car stock class be any different?

 

So let's make a class that 2, maybe 3 competitive cars in it? There's a metric *** ton of logic right thar.

slowSER:

At Nationals last year, six different types of cars finished in the 11 trophy positions in DS (and none of those types of cars won the Pro Solo championship either ).  In GS, two different types of cars (Mini Coopers and Kreimelmeyer Sentra) finished in the trophies.  Wouldn't it, you know, make sense to, you know, move one overdog car up a class to "create" a class with more participation rather than moving several competitive cars from one healthy, diverse class into two different classes?

I can see the blank canvas of the big picture, but the artists forgot the paint.

Pat

There is a distinction between trophying and competing isnt there?  The top AS guys could likely trophy in SS if they wanted to, but thats not really competing for the win is it?  I think what JT did on the Audi last year was awesome, but isnt it just a bit telling that he's not campaigning that car again this year? 

Couple things to consider here, because I do agree with some of your logic.  Lets say GS has become bit bland, so what is wrong with introducing some new blood?  That's what the FT proposal is asking, can we add some more cars to shift the paradigm a little and create a larger group of competitive offerings?  The ITR to BS proposal is a separate one.  You could easily be for one or the other, or neither or both. 

Just my opinion, but if we move the Mini to DS it will end up close, but not good enough to win(never mind the fact that the Mini to DS proposal went out once already).  So what have we acccomplished by moving it up?  You have added yet another car to DS that isnt quite as good as an ITR, an removed one of the competitive offerings from GS.  Why not expand the competitive landscape in GS, possibly bumping its participation numbers towards what we see in SS and AS?  Maybe these arent the right cars to do that.  If they arent, and you have a good idea of what is, please write in with your well thought advice, I can assure you its appreciated.

I suppose if the ITR guys don't mind their car being killed off then, this reclassing certainly helps the rest of us out. Although, I worry about the bottom feeders (and yesterday's sporty sport compacts, i.e. Celica GT, Neon ACR, Impreza RS, GTi) of the current GS also getting permanently killed off unless they get bumped down to HS. Which, will then kill off all those cars.

 I am in no way opposed to competing against the ITR with my car, nor do I think any other uber-sport compact car owners are. We bought these cars because we thought they were the equal of that car and enjoy the challenge of trying to prove that.

I say it is up to the owners of the ITRs and their feedback, or lack of it, on this one.

alvanderp:

Just my opinion, but if we move the Mini to DS it will end up close, but not good enough to win(never mind the fact that the Mini to DS proposal went out once already).  So what have we acccomplished by moving it up?  You have added yet another car to DS that isnt quite as good as an ITR, an removed one of the competitive offerings from GS.  Why not expand the competitive landscape in GS, possibly bumping its participation numbers towards what we see in SS and AS?  Maybe these arent the right cars to do that.  If they arent, and you have a good idea of what is, please write in with your well thought advice, I can assure you its appreciated.

Drew, don't mean to be picking on ya.  BUT, you could easily expand the GS landscape by moving the mini up to DS.  Doing so would give newer and yet to come models a place to play.  New Spec V, new VW GTI, BMW 128, etc etc.  And you might even move some of the DS also-rans to GS to help fill the blanks.  Such as, OLD colbalt, 02-05 wrx, yada yada yada.  I assure you though, if the mini left GS, right now--the class would still put up better numbers than last year at nats. 

alvanderp:

Couple things to consider here, because I do agree with some of your logic.  Lets say GS has become bit bland, so what is wrong with introducing some new blood?  That's what the FT proposal is asking, can we add some more cars to shift the paradigm a little and create a larger group of competitive offerings?  The ITR to BS proposal is a separate one.  You could easily be for one or the other, or neither or both. 

I don't have a problem with some of the other cars moving to GS for "new blood."  My comment about moving one car to "fix" things was aimed a little at shooting down the MCS move, which if it had happened, would NOT make the MCS totally uncompetitive and obsolete.  That would happen to the Type R if it moved.  Yes it may be an obscure car, but they still keep coming out in DS.  And others still keep showing up to (try to?) shoot them down with (in no particular order) Chryslers, BMWs, VWs, Audis and Subarus.  It's not like the exodus away from F-Bodies in FS.

Pat

Since my car isn't even a decent mid-pack car in DS and not sure how it would fare against the current GS cars... I can say that I'm fine with whever they place us...Is it frustrating to see a 10+ year old car still run the class for the most part... yes. Would it make me go out and get one... nah.

I have no delusions of granduer with my car. I know it suffers without the LSD, and I go out and compete anyway. DFL in DS and DFL in GS is stil... yep.. DFL. :)  I WILL be holding off on a new car for next year until I see where the classing sorts itself out to. I was planning on a new car anyway... just see where they end up.

BigB:

So let's make a class that 2, maybe 3 competitive cars in it? There's a metric *** ton of logic right thar.

That argument won't fly, as that's true of most every existing stock class, including the current DS...

double post

Wow.

3 Pages of comments and not one person has said the ITR is moving so that BMW can dominate yet another class. 

Is that enough smileys?

Vanimaniac:

I'm not sure about equal drivers and conditions and whatnot but every tour so far this year has had the GS Mini's faster than the DS ITR's.

The back-to-back national championship winning Type R was stolen, and the Brothers Borowski are no longer campaigning a theft-magnet. While the relevant tours have not yet occurred, I would suggest that the 'equal drivers' part of the equation has taken something of a hit as a result (JT is no longer running his 2nd place TT either IIRC).

         -- Gary


 

alvanderp:

...Just my opinion, but if we move the Mini to DS it will end up close, but not good enough to win(never mind the fact that the Mini to DS proposal went out once already). 

 Ummmm....  Was that before or after the mini got a diff?  Seems as though that would make a difference... 

MrHeavyFoot:

Wow.

3 Pages of comments and not one person has said the ITR is moving so that BMW can dominate yet another class. 

Nice...  

Subdude:

Vanimaniac:

I'm not sure about equal drivers and conditions and whatnot but every tour so far this year has had the GS Mini's faster than the DS ITR's.

The back-to-back national championship winning Type R was stolen, and the Brothers Borowski are no longer campaigning a theft-magnet. While the relevant tours have not yet occurred, I would suggest that the 'equal drivers' part of the equation has taken something of a hit as a result (JT is no longer running his 2nd place TT either IIRC).

Everyone was saying the same thing about the MCS being faster than DS at every Tour and most ProSolos in 2006 as well.

why does everyone discount Bart's accomplishments?  Because it is only one guy doing that well?  Isn't car classing based on the best driver driving the best prepared car?    So when he beats the best GS drivers whenever he meets them (milwaukee nt and Nationals), no one remembers.  But Everyone remembers when one of the top GS drivers beats a low to mid pack DS nats finisher.

alvanderp:

Just my opinion, but if we move the Mini to DS it will end up close, but not good enough to win(never mind the fact that the Mini to DS proposal went out once already).  So what have we acccomplished by moving it up?  You have added yet another car to DS that isnt quite as good as an ITR, an removed one of the competitive offerings from GS.  Why not expand the competitive landscape in GS, possibly bumping its participation numbers towards what we see in SS and AS?  Maybe these arent the right cars to do that.  If they arent, and you have a good idea of what is, please write in with your well thought advice, I can assure you its appreciated.

At Topeka last year, with GS and DS running consecutive heats:

 5 different Mini drivers were within 1 sec of Bartek.  Zero other ITR drivers were within one sec of Bartek (and there were plenty of ITR's there).  6 Mini drivers beat the 2nd fastest ITR driver.  The Mini is not good enough to win?

And how is the MCS "one of the competitive offerings from GS" when it seems that by your definition even the 2nd place car from DS nationals last year isn't "competitive."  Nothing other than an MCS was closer to winning GS than the TT was to winning DS.

gary p:

I guess this a clear message that the SEB no longer cares to see the cars competitively classed.  Can't say I blame them.  The TypeR has been at or near the top for a decade.  You haven't been able to get one new since Clinton was in the white house, and you can't hardly find one used that hasn't be bastardized.  If you are lucky enough to come across a stock one it costs a small fortune to buy, costs another small fortune to insure, and will probably be stolen eventually. 

 I don't get that.   I was in the market for an ITR and found two locally within a day.  There are 3-5 for sale on any given time on Ebay, another 10-20 between SCCAForums, ITRCA and Honda Tech, then another 6-7 in the Autotrader every month.  It's not hard to find an ITR.  It's certainly not as difficult as finding a clean Porsche 968 to run B-Stock.. but wait, the 968 isn't the best anymore, so no one cares! 

 Price?  12-14K is a lot of money for a good DS car?  I was in a BMW dealer in Denver last month and the one 128i for sale, stickered for $41,000.  As if Audi TTs are much less.. and SRT4s aren't any cheaper than an ITR. 

Don't forget the fact that National events are mostly the same group of several thousand people who have been doing this for years.  If the reasoning to move the ITR to BS is to "bring new people into the sport" into D Stock, good luck.  My guess is the ITR owners will move onto a different car, perhaps 1-2 people nationwide will notice and join SCCA. 

If the move is to eliminate a class killer that is supposedly impossible to find, I'm not seeing that.  There are plenty of Type Rs for sale...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Acura-Integra-Type-R-RARE-INTEGRA-TYPE-R-1OWNER-23K-ORIGINAL-MILES-YELLOW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ5335QQihZ021QQitemZ310060764949QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW