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The Nebulizer:

This is not so much a problem with PAX, but a problem with classing (and then extended to PAX). By choosing to class based on things like age, price, number of seats, number of doors, availability, etc instead of strictly on performance metrics (drivetrain, hp, weight, size, etc), these course dependant elements are built into the system. (PAX actually averages these dependancies and reduces the variation.)

You have to account for these things when classing cars... 

Age - do you really want a 30 year old Lotus 7 winning CS?  There is 1 unmolested CS legal car in the entire US.  Imagine if that car comes to Nationals and wins by 2 seconds.  No other person could buy that car. 

Price - Do you want a $100,000 car winning HS?  If you think that participation is low now... 

Availability - See the Lotus 7 above?  There is 1 in the entire country.  If that car is the only one that can win in a certain class, what happens?  

Seats and doors are a little more complex but you always want to group like with like whenever possible.  This was the problem I had with the Evo to ASP proposal.  Why would you class an Evo against something (Vette) so entirely different.  Seats and doors are also indicators of weight so you are not directly classing by doors.

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

SpyderVenom:

The Nebulizer:

This is not so much a problem with PAX, but a problem with classing (and then extended to PAX). By choosing to class based on things like age, price, number of seats, number of doors, availability, etc instead of strictly on performance metrics (drivetrain, hp, weight, size, etc), these course dependant elements are built into the system. (PAX actually averages these dependancies and reduces the variation.)

You have to account for these things when classing cars... 

Age - do you really want a 30 year old Lotus 7 winning CS?  There is 1 unmolested CS legal car in the entire US.  Imagine if that car comes to Nationals and wins by 2 seconds.  No other person could buy that car. 

Price - Do you want a $100,000 car winning HS?  If you think that participation is low now... 

Availability - See the Lotus 7 above?  There is 1 in the entire country.  If that car is the only one that can win in a certain class, what happens?  

Seats and doors are a little more complex but you always want to group like with like whenever possible.  This was the problem I had with the Evo to ASP proposal.  Why would you class an Evo against something (Vette) so entirely different.  Seats and doors are also indicators of weight so you are not directly classing by doors.

The point was that by classing this way, you will run in to course dependancies that are greater than if the cars were classed primarily by performance metrics. If a rare car could win its class by 2 seconds, wouldn't you agree it was classed poorly and without enough consideration of its performance? As to price, if I were running stock in AS, I would have no problem being beaten by a Chevette if it was capable. Should I feel some arrogance that only expensive cars should be allowed to compete with me? If a $100,000 car stinks at autocross (Bentley maybe?) would we want it to be in the 'high-priced' class with less regard to its performance? What is wrong with a high priced HS car? (Again, if it is a class dominator, obviously it should be classed elsewhere. But, if it fits in HS - put it in HS. I do agree that efforts should be made to keep any class dominators from being expensive cars in classes that are primarily occupied by lower priced cars - that certainly makes sense as a financial consideration.)

And, seats are certainly used to directly class cars. (I can't speak for stock classes as I don't know all the cars, maybe CS? Not sure... but... ) For classes like STS2 and SM2, seats are the defining separation (I assume, though I don't know for a fact, that this leads to some odd classing.)

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Jason P.
Indy Region Moderator
STU - M3 e46

quote: Age - do you really want a 30 year old Lotus 7 winning CS?  There is 1 unmolested CS legal car in the entire US.  Imagine if that car comes to Nationals and wins by 2 seconds.  No other person could buy that car.  end quote Is that the one running in CART events? If so, it didn't do very well. --Pat Kelly

Pat Kelly:

quote: Age - do you really want a 30 year old Lotus 7 winning CS? There is 1 unmolested CS legal car in the entire US. Imagine if that car comes to Nationals and wins by 2 seconds. No other person could buy that car. end quote Is that the one running in CART events? If so, it didn't do very well. --Pat Kelly

Different car.

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

SpyderVenom:

Pat Kelly:

quote: Age - do you really want a 30 year old Lotus 7 winning CS? There is 1 unmolested CS legal car in the entire US. Imagine if that car comes to Nationals and wins by 2 seconds. No other person could buy that car. end quote Is that the one running in CART events? If so, it didn't do very well. --Pat Kelly

Different car.

That makes two! 100% increase! :) Pat

bconners:

Thats correct;  For 2009 the ITR will either stay in DS or move to BS.  

ES seems like the natural place for the ITR. There is already at least one relatively rare high horsepower FWD car in that class. Why not add one more? Maybe let the Lotus Elan M-100 in too.

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Matthew Huizing
1995 Saturn SC2 - H Stock
1993 Geo Storm GSi - STS

Matthew:

ES seems like the natural place for the ITR. There is already at least one relatively rare high horsepower FWD car in that class. Why not add one more? Maybe let the Lotus Elan M-100 in too.

Pardon my ignorance - but which car is that? I do think there's merit to the Type R going to ES. At this point, it can't happen until 2010 though...

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Chike Dellimore - Blue Ridge/Washington DC Regions
2006 Galaxy Gray 6MT Mazda RX-8 (B-stock)
Former 2006 Steel Gray 5spd WRX (D-stock)

"I have a lot to work on...crazy is still on the list."

Chiketkd:

Matthew:

ES seems like the natural place for the ITR. There is already at least one relatively rare high horsepower FWD car in that class. Why not add one more? Maybe let the Lotus Elan M-100 in too.

Pardon my ignorance - but which car is that? I do think there's merit to the Type R going to ES. At this point, it can't happen until 2010 though...

That would be the Dodge Charger.  At a whopping 146hp and FWD, that's a class winner.   

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Rob Leone

'07 Solstice GXP in AS
'87 Toyota Corolla in EP
ex - '91 MR2 Turbo in SM2 <- If you can't set a good example, serve as a horrible warning.

I was actually thinking the Dodge Omni GLH Turbo, since I have seen a couple of them around town this year. 146hp and 168 ft-lbs. I believe these are pretty light cars too. 

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Matthew Huizing
1995 Saturn SC2 - H Stock
1993 Geo Storm GSi - STS

Actually, I thought about the ITR coming to ES too.  That would make sense from a competitive standpoint, and it would be yet another somewhat affordable possibility for the class without being an overdog.  It's older and out of production and not outrageously expensive---sounds like my newly purchased MR2.  hmmm

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Jer
1993 MR2 #196 ES
2005 Lotus Elise (retired)
1999 Dodge 4X4 tow vehicle
1993 Miata (just tired)
1987 Corolla Lemons car
1984 Citation Lemons car

Obviously I *do* have a dog in this fight,  so I'm clearly opposed to moving the ITR to BS.  But not just because I own and drive one, but because I really don't see any logical reasoning behind it.  I understood the proposal last year to move the MCS to DS (in fact, I still support it actually).  It just makes sense to have cars with similar power and consistently similar speed/performance/results to be grouped in the same class.  So in the case of MCS versus ITR I get it.  But throwing the ITR into BS would kill the ITR, period.  Even the Lucky Polish Lugnut wouldn't save the ITR from B-Stock...

aansorge:

 We shall see.  I can always dump my co-driver and his Lucky Lugnut.

Be careful, do not anger the Lucky Lugnut.

 

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- Chris DeLay
DS 2000 Acura ITR
Lucky Lugnut Racing

FYI, last years proposal to move the MCS to DS died due to member feedback and the SAC's fear that what would be left in GS wouldn't make for a healthy class.  Perhaps it would have been healthy or perhaps it's dying would have made combining it with something else easier.  Either way it's not currently an option.

Jeff 

Type R to ES would be interesting....but a good top notch type R is still 14-18k fully prepped. Kevin D's MR2 was about as fully prepped an MR2 as I had seen and it was still under 12k if I remember :)  So a bit on the pricey side........

Maybe a CS car then? 

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

Davebs14:

Type R to ES would be interesting....but a good top notch type R is still 14-18k fully prepped. Kevin D's MR2 was about as fully prepped an MR2 as I had seen and it was still under 12k if I remember :)  So a bit on the pricey side........

Maybe a CS car then? 

Yesterday I ran at Miller Park at a WAI Test and Tune.  I ran Chris Delay's Type R with its new double adjustable shocks on old but surprisingly grippy VictoRacers.  My fastest time was a 29.1 (with a cone) after many, many runs. I think my fastest clean run was a 29.3.  

Prior to running the Type R, I ran my '99 sport for 3 runs.  On my second run I ran a 29.8.  This were on Goodyear GS-D3's.  I'm pretty confident I could have dropped my times further on my Miata, given more runs (I ran the car more, but on the 'untimed course".  

A Type R would be slaughtered in CS and ES at the National level.

I went back and looked at some results, and the Type R could be semicompetitive in ES.  At Nationals last year, Bartek would have finished 3rd in ES.

it's a course dependent car outside DS. IMO, there are faster airport courses that the Type R would do well on in ES or CS. Not win I'm sure, but be in the trophies at a national level.

In the rain they will kill an ES miata too IMO. :)

My point being, I'd rather see the car go to CS than ES or BS if it's to be moved. ES it's too expensive to fit the cheap class mold and BS it's way outclassed.........but.....CS is "for sportscars" so if we're doing class theory's ( BS is a 4 seat class I might add) then the Type R belongs in BS in the bumping order.

Not my decision, but I think with the class theory's that's where its progression goes to. 

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car