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Bucketlist:

Rob: I wasn't trying to start a clusterxxxx here. I read an article not too long ago by Carroll Shelby that discussed his views on clones, copies, aftermarket pirates, etc.

He wasn't very complementary about any of them, including the AC Cobra knock-offs. In fact, he seemed upset. I can't say that I blame him. He's worked hard for what he has. From hints at what was said, now that everything is a larger corporation, there could be future "efforts" brought to better protect the corporation's copyrights and trademarks. If there is one thing I've learned, it's that a corporation will spare no expense to protect their "intellectual" property. It's just a write-off for them. I looked into this because I was trying to find out how to get Shelby's "Terlingua Racing Team " hood paint scheme ( or similar ) painted on the hood of my black car. In the end, I'm still just plain stock black because of the potential risk. Yeah, it may not be such a big deal, but suppose photos of the car wind up on the front cover of Sports Car, or inside some other publication? In then end, I decided I might be better off to just go with decals of a yellow rabbit holding a shot glass and call it Tequila Race team. It's actually much more appropriate.

 FYI, my Bullitts are optioned identical, just different VINs, FR identification numbers, and exterior paint colors. 

I kind of feel the same way about the Bullitts. There have been plenty out there, at, or very close to X plan pricing. No need to start cloning when a clone will never be a Bullitt. The Bullitts were a limited production run, each with a unique number. You can't clone and document the number, so why bother.

When I look at the more recent National FS Solo times, and compare the times between the best FS driver ( and we all know who that it ) and the rest of the field, the big difference can only be because of the better skill of the driver. IMHO  mods may explain a few tenths or a few hundredths difference, but when the margins approach 2 seconds, it doesn't really matter. A good driver can put together good runs in any car with potential.

Learning to drive is much cheaper and more rewarding than cloning. 

 

Steve S 

2008 Bullitt  Black  118 FS

2008 Bullitt DHG   118 FS 

 

I think something is being lost in translation here.  It would seem that some are under the impression this and even a few other threads are about creating a Shelby GT from a regular GT Premium or whatever baseline someone owns.  Thats actually not at all what is being done.  Think of it more in terms of using a formula that has been proven as mathematically correct.  If Shelby did not want folks to be able to reproduce the performance specs of a car he put his name on, he should have gone out and used proprietary parts that no one can buy anywhere.  Instead, he chose to simply make the stripes, hood scoop, and dash plaque the proprietary items and used Ford Racing performance parts that anyone can buy at will.  I have seen a number of 2005-2006-2007 regular GT's with the lowering spring kits directly from a dealer that come with a full warranty from Ford.  I seem to remember a conversation with someone who had talked to Ford about a number of things regarding their FR1 and FR3 packages and how Ford was confused as to why more folks were not buying those packages over a Shelby GT because of the price difference between the end results.  Some dealers are buying the packages and installing them for people before they buy the car, others are going back later and doing it. 

Basically using the proven formula allows folks to gain the performance advantages without paying for the Shelby name and if that were in anyway illegal, you would not see these same parts on regular GT's on just about any dealers lot or being offered by any knowledgeable salesperson. 

 
The Bullitt specs are a regular GT with a couple simple changes in performance, none of which are in the handling department unfortunately. 
 

Rob:

Thanks. I'm well aware of the Bullitt specs, and the fact that the FRPP3 is  currently still missing. I think the point is that if you do make a clone out of a GT, then it should be entered as a GT, and should not be referred to as a Shelby on the SCCA entry, paperwork, and publicity, because it is not a Shelby.

Steve S. 

Bucketlist....you have a PM.....

Jason- You have a PM, and a nice car !!!

Steve 

ccytrader:

I think something is being lost in translation here.  It would seem that some are under the impression this and even a few other threads are about creating a Shelby GT from a regular GT Premium or whatever baseline someone owns.  Thats actually not at all what is being done.  Think of it more in terms of using a formula that has been proven as mathematically correct.  If Shelby did not want folks to be able to reproduce the performance specs of a car he put his name on, he should have gone out and used proprietary parts that no one can buy anywhere.  Instead, he chose to simply make the stripes, hood scoop, and dash plaque the proprietary items and used Ford Racing performance parts that anyone can buy at will.  I have seen a number of 2005-2006-2007 regular GT's with the lowering spring kits directly from a dealer that come with a full warranty from Ford.  I seem to remember a conversation with someone who had talked to Ford about a number of things regarding their FR1 and FR3 packages and how Ford was confused as to why more folks were not buying those packages over a Shelby GT because of the price difference between the end results.  Some dealers are buying the packages and installing them for people before they buy the car, others are going back later and doing it. 

Basically using the proven formula allows folks to gain the performance advantages without paying for the Shelby name and if that were in anyway illegal, you would not see these same parts on regular GT's on just about any dealers lot or being offered by any knowledgeable salesperson. 

 
The Bullitt specs are a regular GT with a couple simple changes in performance, none of which are in the handling department unfortunately. 
 

Agree 100%. The shelby is nothing special. It's bolts on's with a couple graphics. It's like buying a car with a sport package. If he really cared about making a car no one could reproduce he would have done some things differently. Different wheel bolt pattern (ITR) seem weld chassis (nizmo 350), Hand built higher hp/rpm engine (BMW M's).  Basically when you buy a shelby your paying $10k more for $2k worth of parts and a hood scoop that you can't buy (and looks cheap).  I don't see the argument here.

I think most of the points of this subject are noted. Lets move on from this one and not let it degenerate to anything else.

BucketList- Steve -

Welcome back, let us know how the Bullitt is treating you. I know Rob and his dad wheel theirs around pretty good. It will be fun to see more of them in the future at events.

Cheers,

J H

So you're saying your car is legal, Jason? 

Seriously, guys, this is a road well-traveled.  Let it go. 

I agree...let's move on.

Perspectives are going to be different, for different reasons.

The things I particularly enjoy about the Bullitt might not appeal or matter to other folks. For me, it's a "daily driver". The shifter is just plain sweet. So are the seats and the 3.73 gears. The wheels might not appeal to some, but I still hand wash my cars, and those wheels are nice and easy to clean, especially compared to others I've had on other cars. On a good road surface, it handles OK for a factory car.

The floating rear axle & 3 point just hasn't been a major issue. I do "try" not to turn while going over humps.

In traffic, no ones notices it. The rice burners just leave me alone. I can add the FRPP3. I can change shocks & fronts bars. I can change wheels & tires.

The only issues... IMHO....are that the bugs don't get a lane choice, and I'm not getting younger. 

Steve

The Bullitt is still fairly new & details of its differences to the other S197's are lacking - you'll find the car actually has less in common w/ the regular GT than the Shelby GT. For example, try swapping spark plugs between them.. I think Mrsideways is spot-on with his description of the Shelby GT (GTCS + bolts-ons + Shelby mystique) where as the Bullitt was actually engineered to extend its performance beyond the base car, albeit in a mild 'still OEM' sort of way. We'll have to see which is more important to collectors in 40yrs

Has anyone dyno'd both cars? I'm curious to see how the real output compares between them - I suspect they're closer than the ratings would lead you to believe.

Cheers!

tosi:

The Bullitt is still fairly new & details of its differences to the other S197's are lacking - you'll find the car actually has less in common w/ the regular GT than the Shelby GT. For example, try swapping spark plugs between them.. I think Mrsideways is spot-on with his description of the Shelby GT (GTCS + bolts-ons + Shelby mystique) where as the Bullitt was actually engineered to extend its performance beyond the base car, albeit in a mild 'still OEM' sort of way. We'll have to see which is more important to collectors in 40yrs

Has anyone dyno'd both cars? I'm curious to see how the real output compares between them - I suspect they're closer than the ratings would lead you to believe.

Cheers!

Since this thread was originally about the Bullitt specs here are some simple facts.  As stated before by Sam and a few others the shocks and struts just dont matter for what we do.  So any real differences there between the Bullitt and a regular GT are null.  What we do care about are things like the springs, bars, ride height.  We can go ahead and start with springs.  Here are the part numbers for springs according to Ford, what should be on the car.  Fronts should be 6R3Z-5310-F and rears 5R3Z-5560-AA.  In 2007 the rear AA code was interchangeable with AC however in 2008 models it is not.  Our front springs are 6R33-5310-GA and rears are 5R33-5560-AC.  Here are some other documented front/rear spring combos from Bullitts 6R33-5310-FA/ 5R33-5560-AC, 4R33-5310-FA/5R33-5560-BA, 6R33-5310-FA/5R33-5560-BC.  Any and all of these different part numbers can also be documented on everything from V6 to GT coupes from 2005 up. 

Then Ford claims there was a bar change too.  Not sure what that bar change was since the front is still a 34mm and rear is a 20mm just like a regular GT. 

As for the power between the two, they pull about the same after driving Jasons car.  Like I said before, its a GT with a couple power upgrades but nothing to do with handling.
 

I think Rob did a good job in pretty much puttting down the argument the Bullitt is more than it really is.

 Ford has done this twice now, hyped up a bunch of changes for the Bullitt (back in '01 and now '08), many of which just weren't true in the end.

A Bullitt is a GT with 3.73's and an intake/tune.  It does not have special spring, or bars, the shocks seem to be a bit different but that's a non-issue since in Stock you can change those anyway.  I'm not knocking the Bullitt and yes it has some similar stuff to a Shelby GT (the intake and tune, STB), but does not have the springs or bars and that's what makes the Shelby work better.  That said, I've been on record as saying I think a well driven GT can at least hang in there with a Shelby as I've done it from time to time.  It's course dependent, and at a Pro I think things will slant more the SGT's way since they don't wheelhop like the stock height cars do, meaning I can launch a GT or Bullitt as hard.

Not disputing the suspension differences (rear springs should be insignificantly shorter vs regular GT though) but cross check the engine codes before calling the Bullitt a 'GT w/ an intake & tune'

If you are imtimating that they built a special engine for the Bullitt, I'd have to disagree.  There is just no way I buy they tooled up a whole different engine (and left the displacement and all the same), that makes a whopping 6 more claimed HP than the Shelby, and 25 more than GT.

 Are the engine codes different?  I don't know.  Enlighten us.

FWIW, Rob already listed a number of springs, as well as what their car has and the are just normal production parts. 

I always will admit to being wrong when I am, so please feel free to correct me. If I recall, the published performance numbers given to the press on the Bullitt only suggested 315 HP/320 ft. lbs. torque on unleaded, which is 4 HP less than the Shelby's advertised 319 HP. No HP numbers were ever given for the Bullitt on premium, but it was stated that torque went up 5 ft/bs. to 325, if I recall. The cold air intake, hood seal, recalibration, and lighter dampener could easily explain that difference.

Now........ 

According to the SCCA, a model is very specifically defined in Rule 12.3 below.

The Bullitt, as shown on the manufacturer's sticker is only identified a 2 door GT Coupe Premium with several option/delete  packages, and a 5 speed manual transmission, just as some other cars are GT's Coupes with specific option/delete packages, therefore, they meet the definition below as having virtually identical bodies and chassis, only distinguishable from other models of the same make by virtue of a major difference in body appearance and/or chassis design. I think they call this body/chassis a S197. It also says clearly that the names by which a manufacturer designates these groups have no bearing on this definition, even though two groups may be designated identically. 

VIN number differentiation ( at least for 08's ) indicates the following models: i.e., a basic V-6 coupe, a V-6 convertible, a GT coupe, a GT convertible, a Shelby 500 coupe and a Shelby 500 convertible.

4.6L  Shelby GT's ( either coupe or convertible ) aren't even designated differently by VIN from a GT coupe or convertible according to what is in print. VIN designations are also indicated for airbag locations, model years, engine displacement, individual car number, and location of manufacture.

This is how insurance companies judge the "model" of your car, and quote your policy.  

12.3 Model

"A group of cars of a given make which have virtually identical bodies and chassis but are readily distinguished from other models of the same make by virtue of a major difference in body appearance and/or chassis design. The names by which the manufacturer designates these groups have no bearing on this definition even though two groups may be designated identically."

2008 Mustang VIN Decoder

Engine Code

Engine/Body/Options

• N

• 4.0L SOHC V6 210hp

• H

• 4.6L SOHC V8 300hp

• S

• 5.4L DOHC V8 Supercharged 500hp

• T80

• Coupe

• T82

• Coupe GT

• T84

• Convertible

• T85

• Convertible GT

As written, if we've got 4.6L GT's, they come in many forms, and can be called by different names, but as long as they have the same body appearance and chassis design ( S197s) we've got either GT coupes or convertible models, if we have a 4.6 L V-8.

I find this interesting.

Of course.... there is also the definition of a standard part...

12.4 Standard Part

An item of standard or optional equipment that could have been ordered with the car, installed on the factory production line, and delivered through a dealer in the United States. Dealer-installed options or deletions, except as required by factory directives, no matter how common or what their origin, are not included in this definition. This definition does not allow the updating or backdating of parts.

 And.... what about only cosmetic parts, as someone previously discussed as not being required unless they materially affect the weight of the car?

2007 Mustang VIN Decoder

Engine Code

Engine/Body/Options

• N

• 4.0L SOHC V6 210hp

• H

• 4.6L SOHC V8 300hp

• S

• 5.4L DOHC V8 Supercharged 500hp

• T80

• Coupe

• T82

• Coupe GT

• T84

• Convertible

• T85

• Convertible GT

Hmmm.... 

 Steve

Good info on the spring numbers! The Bullitt also gets the GT500 steering wheel (which we really don't care about but it does look nice) and the GT500 seats, which are very nice and we may care about as they may weigh more/less than the GT Premium seats. I believe the Bullitt comes with the regular shifter which is a wash with the GT but a huge advantage over the Shelby which comes with the Hurst Resist-o-shifter . The Bullitt does come with the lovely machined dash cover...which may be relevant if you stare at it too long and run over cones.

The Bullitt has 3.73's which we certainly care about but who knows whether it is good or bad.  It does play well with the higher redline (6500). The Bullitt gets a different engine calibration which includes dual octane fuel maps, and a different intake (in front or upstream of the throttle body).  It gets a different grill...is the nose different? The wheels are painted differently and Highland green is available as color.

 Is that everything? 

As far as the discussion of models goes, I am not sure where that is going. Bullitt and Shelby GT are both option packages.