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This topic came up again over in a Stock category thread and also on a recent STAC call.  I know there have been threads on this periodically, and the STAC/SEB have received letters requesting this several times in the past two years.  The response each time was to table the issue to allow for the newly-national STU to settle out some.  Now that the class has shown clear dominance for one type of vehicle (Turbo AWD = StEvo), perhaps it is time to at least consider removing the E46 M3 from the exclusion list.  Here are some thought starters:

The E46 M3 fits the class formula.  But it is on the exclusion list, which is meant to keep class-killer cars out.  Is it really a class killer?

Compared to the E36 M3, which is just a so-so STU car, the E46 is wider (slower in slaloms) and heavier (less ultimate grip?).

Compared to the E36 M3, the E46 has much better power to weight, but can it put it down on street tires, especially compared to AWD?

Would the class be better in the short and medium term to just leave it alone?

Thoughts?

--Andy

Give the beast somewhere to play......with mods it won't be as slow.....but the AWDs will still dominate.....I don't see the harm. It's cheaper to prep a Suby for STU anyway so this will give the E46 somewhere else.

Any other similar cars on the table? Are the Audi S4's legal? Any of them?
 

My Initial thoughts are:  Yes, it is time.

Mostly because the biggest factor for not letting it in before (the rather hefty price tag compared to other vehicles) has just about disappeared.  With the new EVO and STi climbing ever closer to $40,000 new, it is hard to exclude the E46 M3 on price issues, since examples run in the $20-40k range (at least in the NorCal area) depending on year, mileage etc.

I would comment that I think you've underestimated the capability of the E36 M3 by calling it "so-so."  I think it has proven a solid trophy winner, and numerous events over the past year or two show it right at the top time wise.  So if the E46 is even 0.5 seconds quicker on a typical NT course, you're talking about a class winning car.  However, as you stated, the fact it will be running the same tires as its less powerful and lighter weight older brother, it may not prove faster at all.  That's always been one thing about the tire limits, they tend to level the  playing field.

On an unrelated note, I actually think the concept of allowing STU to run select 2-seaters makes more sense in terms of servicing a bigger audience.  I don't think a new upper end 2-seater class is required.  Just let them in STU.  And if need be, use the 245 tire limit rules on cars like the S2000, MR2T to counteract their "low slung" advantage. 

IMO
 

Chris H. 

Yea, some of were discussing this over lunch just the other day.  We were talking about the new STI which led to what other viable cars were in the same price range, leading us to the E46.  IMO, if I were spending $40k, I'd MUCH rather have a M3 than a Subaru for the same pricetag. 

I really don't know where it would fall in performance, but it does appear the E36 is having trouble getting it done in STU, so far at least.  That's just looking at results without really knowing the relative prep levels of the cars along with the driving talent in each car.

Dave G.
 

i think allowing the e46 m3 into STU is long overdue. for the reasons you listed, andy, i doubt it would be a class killer.

and, while we're at it, allow twin or bi-turbos cars so the audi b5 s4 (2.7L bi-turbo), toyota supra, and bmw 135i car run too. we let b5 s4s run in STU locally because quite frankly the exclusion via STX's single turbo rule is just plain nuts.

ditto on allowing 2-seaters.  the s2k and 350z should have a ST class.  NER allows them in STU locally and we in philly will try it next year too or in a supplemental STU2 class.
 

I think it should be let in too.  An advantage it has over the E36 is that it can easily fit class-limit size tires at all 4 corners (on suitably wide wheels), whereas the E36 guys have to do some pretty miraculous stuff, especially in the rear, to get the big 265s or 275s to fit.

More power doesn't seem much of an advantage on street tires at HPT, and the size is definitely a disadvantage.

I think some people are turned off by the E46 in STU idea because it is/would be the only ST car that also gets sent to ASP.  I tend to think the reason it went there instead of BSP is because people considered the E36 M3 "fast enough" for BSP, and in SP trim on R-tires, the E46's extra power becomes usable, and thus the car might be a bit faster, and upset what was the C4/M3 balance there.  In ST trim I think it will be a big (fun!) challenge to utilize all the power you can get from the S54 (which really won't be that much less than Vic's SM car) through a couple of street tires.

This sport needs more overweight & overpowered tire-smokers and fewer lightweight dinkmobiles IMO.  Let's do it!

(and let me know when the Supra gets let in...)

mattymic:

The B5 S4 can not come close to competing in STX w/ out allowing the boost / bar to be remapped - and even then, it is a pig.  Right Doug?

let's not derail this thread too quickly.    the b5 s4 will never be a class winning car in STU and perhaps it is a STX car given its wheel width problems, but, as of right now, it doesn't have a ST home which is lamentable.
 

jzr:

I think it should be let in too.  An advantage it has over the E36 is that it can easily fit class-limit size tires at all 4 corners (on suitably wide wheels), whereas the E36 guys have to do some pretty miraculous stuff, especially in the rear, to get the big 265s or 275s to fit.

More power doesn't seem much of an advantage on street tires at HPT, and the size is definitely a disadvantage.

+1 I also agree that it should be let into STU. The E46 M3 is classed in A-stock with the StEVo, so these cars have 'similar' solo potential in the stock classes, and I see no reason why this car shouldn't be allowed to play in ST* with these same cars.

Like Jason said, it's fenders are wide enough to accept class limit tires. I don't think it'll dominate the class and will hopefully be able to add more diversity in the trophies.

P.S. I'll send my e-mail to Doug this afternoon. Write those letters folks if you want this change to be made.

P.P.S. Thanks for starting this thread Andy.  

2superblus:

The only problem I see is opening the door for more BMW snobs to complain when they get beat by a lowly EVO or STI.

LOL. As a former '06 WRX owner, I know what you mean, but at least they'll have a newer/faster? model to compete with. We can't help it if they still get beat!

mattymic:

and guess who's e36 is moving to STX this season?  derail attempt number two (yoko or bridg?)

I think the E46 M3 should be allowed in and I'm writing a letter in support of it.  As already stated it can't be excluded due to price.  In fact, I submit that it won't actually be that expensive of a car to purchase and set up.  The factory diff is excellent and probably doesn't need to be swapped out.  It makes barely any more power than a stock Evo / STi and doesn't gain much with STU-allowable modifications.  There are tons of these cars in the hands of enthusiasts (similar demographic to the STi / Evo I suspect) and the car currently has no place where it can play competitively.  It fits the spirit of the class.

jzr:

I think it should be let in too.  An advantage it has over the E36 is that it can easily fit class-limit size tires at all 4 corners (on suitably wide wheels), whereas the E36 guys have to do some pretty miraculous stuff, especially in the rear, to get the big 265s or 275s to fit.

True, but is it enough to compensate for the extra weight?  Weight-to-tire is a good indicator on lateral grip limit, as well as accel potential on the drive wheels.

Any knowledgeable BMW types have actual #'s for this for both the E36 and E46?  Weight of car vs fittable tire size?

--Andy

PS: Let's try and stay on topic, please.   

John V:

mattymic:

and guess who's e36 is moving to STX this season?  derail attempt number two (yoko or bridg?)

I think the E46 M3 should be allowed in and I'm writing a letter in support of it.  As already stated it can't be excluded due to price.  In fact, I submit that it won't actually be that expensive of a car to purchase and set up.  The factory diff is excellent and probably doesn't need to be swapped out.  It makes barely any more power than a stock Evo / STi and doesn't gain much with STU-allowable modifications.  There are tons of these cars in the hands of enthusiasts (similar demographic to the STi / Evo I suspect) and the car currently has no place where it can play competitively.  It fits the spirit of the class.

Well said John - exactly my sentiments. The E46 M3 definitely fits the 'spirit' of the class well.

My letter in support of the move has been sent - SEB 'at' SCCA.com

Andy Hollis:

jzr:

I think it should be let in too.  An advantage it has over the E36 is that it can easily fit class-limit size tires at all 4 corners (on suitably wide wheels), whereas the E36 guys have to do some pretty miraculous stuff, especially in the rear, to get the big 265s or 275s to fit.

True, but is it enough to compensate for the extra weight?  Weight-to-tire is a good indicator on lateral grip limit, as well as accel potential on the drive wheels.

Any knowledgeable BMW types have actual #'s for this for both the E36 and E46?  Weight of car vs fittable tire size?

--Andy

PS: Let's try and stay on topic, please.   

The lightest "stock" E46 M3 you can put together is a cloth-seat, no sunroof car.  The sunroof is 50lbs, so finding a non-roof car is important.  With little in the way of exhaust plus light wheels, hollow FSB and light shocks I seem to remember BobT saying the lightest he got his E46 M3 down to was about 3200lbs. 

Here is a link to a roadfly thread with some actual measured cars:  http://bimmer.roadfly.com/bmw/forums/e46m3/2556089-1.html   which supports my memory... 3400lbs - 50lb sunroof - 32lbs for wheels (stock wheels are very heavy) - 50lbs for exhaust - light shocks, hollow sway bar and low fuel and you're around 3200lbs.

The factory seats are pretty heavy and I'm sure some lighter brakes could be purchased, but overall I suspect the car will still weigh more than the STiEvos and it has little or no power advantage once the STU-legal mods come into play.  What do the E36 M3s weigh?

The E46's big disadvantage in stock is not the weight, it is the soft springs, narrow front wheels and lack of camber.  Wide wheels and tires plus camber plates really wake these cars up.  I have no doubt that an STU-prepped M3 would make the E36s obsolete. 

Butt Dyno:

And please post your log numbers if you get them. I haven't gotten one since 2006 :(

As always, keep re-sending your letters until you get a log #.  No log # means it didn't go through.  Maybe one day this part of the process will be fixed...

--Andy

Chiketkd:

SEB 'at' SCCA.com

 
Does that count as a "letter"?

If so, I'm "writing", if not... screw a buncha licking stamps... =]