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Ok, so in the coming weeks, I'm replacing my stock clutch with another OEM replacement. While I have the car apart, as preventative maintenance, I'll be putting a new set of OEM axles up front too...

SO... here's the quick and dirty...

my car is FWD ( see sig ) and has NO DIFF.... while the car is opened up, I thought about doing the bar since the whole carrier is out of the car. The car came with a 24mm bar ( solid I thnk ), and I've found a 29mm from Eibach. Not sure if it's hollow or not.

I have off the shelf Koni SA's on it and that's the only change. So, here are my questions...

 1) Will the front bar help plant the inside tire better. At nat's I was able to get 1.3 Degrees of Neg. Camber from the stock parts.

2) If it WILL help, would adjustable end links help as well? They are listed as legal to change in stock class, but if it's not going to help the car, I'm not spending the $.

I'm new to suspension stuff, so I'd appreciate any advice. I've been told to save the $$ and get the LSD ( which was a factory option) before anything, but it's not happening right now.

THanks in advance.

 

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS

I'm no expert on suspension, but I believe on a FWD car, you stiffen the REAR to make it turn & the opposite on a RWD car.

I know that on my XA, the rear antisway really perked up the handling.

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"Most amateur drivers go too fast in slow corners and too slow in fast
corners"
Emerson Fittipaldi

Darkhelmet:

Ok, so in the coming weeks, I'm replacing my stock clutch with another OEM replacement. While I have the car apart, as preventative maintenance, I'll be putting a new set of OEM axles up front too...

SO... here's the quick and dirty...

my car is FWD ( see sig ) and has NO DIFF.... while the car is opened up, I thought about doing the bar since the whole carrier is out of the car. The car came with a 24mm bar ( solid I thnk ), and I've found a 29mm from Eibach. Not sure if it's hollow or not.

I have off the shelf Koni SA's on it and that's the only change. So, here are my questions...

 1) Will the front bar help plant the inside tire better. At nat's I was able to get 1.3 Degrees of Neg. Camber from the stock parts.

2) If it WILL help, would adjustable end links help as well? They are listed as legal to change in stock class, but if it's not going to help the car, I'm not spending the $.

I'm new to suspension stuff, so I'd appreciate any advice. I've been told to save the $$ and get the LSD ( which was a factory option) before anything, but it's not happening right now.

THanks in advance.

 

I was under the impression that there was an LSD option on the Cobalt SS S/C.  If so, I would look into getting one put in ASAP!

 I would actually recommend going with a smaller bar.  When Jeff and I ran a non-lsd mini in 06, we ran a smaller front bar and it helped immensly with wheelspin.  And on THAT car, really gave up very little in the transient nature of the car.  You can compensate with shock tunning.

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Jeremy Foley
2001 Subaru 2.5RS Retired G-Stock Autocross Beast
2003 Evo 8 Modded Daily Driver
2004 RX-8 Current Borrowed B-Stock Killer

President
Team if you can't beat them-Join them!

Let me preface this by saying that I am relatively new (3 years experience) and am learning about setup (do you ever really stop?)...   But I think there are differing thoughts on this.  IIRC Jack Burns won HS last year in a 3 that had a bigger from bar on it, I think there were other FWD guys who ran bigger bars as well...  I'm with you in thinking that it would help plant the inside tire, but again like you, I'm just learning the suspenison stuff.   I know a bigger bar would bring on more understeer, but at the same time, it will flatten out the car a little, and you should be able to get the oversteer back with stiffening the adjustable shocks  in the rear... while maintaining a relativly flat front end (which to me = more rubber on the ground)  

I could be, and most likely am flawed in thinking that... but it sounded like a good idea at the time...   Not sure how much of a pain in the ass the front bar is to change on the colbalt, but I think it would be worth a shot to try it.

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Shawn Hill
07 Mini Cooper HS
Kansas City Region SCCA

Hmmm, not sure how it's going to "plant" the inside tire, IMO the question is whether you'll improve the camber and thereby increase the grip on the outside tire.

But no one is asking a key question, are you lifting the inside rear with the stock bar? If you currently lift the inside rear, you'll get more front camber improvement via the bigger bar than if you're not lifting the inside rear and IMO it would be worth a shot. Any reduction in turn-in might be offset with rear toe and shock setting.

If you're not lifting the inside rear it's a tougher tradeoff, especially with the open diff, and with the strut front end the turn-in might suffer too much to be offset by toe and shocks.

 

You also should consider how YOU drive.  If you can't utilize the improved turn in of a bigger front bar then it might hinder more than hurt.  But if you really throw your car around, it may be right for you.  Also, like said before, if your camber curves are bad enough, your contact patch may be more important.

 For me, i noticed a marginal to good improvement in turn in, but i felt a considerable loss in mid corner sweeper grip with a big bar.  Don't we spend more time in steady state than turn in anyway?  As FWD, don't we need exit traction in order to make it down the next straight?  A smaller bar makes sense to me and feels good to me.  A bigger bar will not improve inside wheelspin; shocks, springs and lsd are your tools for that, two of which you're probably SOL(I also recommend investing if you can option upgrade to the ss lsd).  What made the biggest difference for me was driving smoother/better and putting on some good old koni yellows:  improved turn-in, mid corner and exit.  An LSD is next, whenever my clutch kicks the bucket, i'll do both.

 You may not know which is best until you test it, bars have decent resale, try it out!  It will if nothing else improve your skills/knowledge of tuning & driving. 

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Rob P.

The new--05' Subaru WRX
The old--04' VW GTI
->the damage: http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/penderperson/WRX/pics005.jpg

There's no point in buying parts then finding out they don't work. What I mean by that is, if you don't have the LSD and you replace the front sway bar then install the LSD, you might find out the front bar now needs to be smaller.

I'd install the LSD first then see if you need the front bar at that point. 

 

I ended up going with a smaller front bar on the Integra and it's helped with rear rotation. 

actually the rear rotates great on the car...

 The LSD was part of an option package on the car.. the LSD and Recaro seats... if I find the seats, it's easier to get the Diff...

and the bar is a relative PITA to swap out... hence why I thoguht about it while the subframe was out at the time.

thanks for the input... seems just as divided as I expected. :)

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS

I agree, try for the LSD and then try out a bar...but autocross is 80% driver, 20% car, so if one person does will with a BFB and someone does will with a small one who's correct?  The person who's faster.  FWIW, You can get faster by being right and you can get faster by being wrong too(learning from mistakes)!

 

Also, IMO a front bar with an LSD is a good combo *IF* you can tune rotation with rear toe, rebound or (last resort) camber...and pressures to a degree.

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Rob P.

The new--05' Subaru WRX
The old--04' VW GTI
->the damage: http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb198/penderperson/WRX/pics005.jpg

As far as HOW I DRIVE.....

 At this 1st event this weekend, I drove with alot more confidence and very aggressively... I was really throwing the car around... the rear has always been easy to dial in rotatin-wise... even more now with the Konis.

The front just really isn't happy in sweepers and without the LSD, the inside wheel is useless and so it the throttle. I have to feather it the entire time.

So... if I could get the wheel to fall back a bit better ( smaller bar?? ) that would be ideal for now. Right now, I just chuck it around and make it straighten out quicker so I can get back on the throttle.

I can't find the seats anywhere, except haven't tried some race shops ( Phoenix  for one ) that gut their cars to see if they have any for sale. At this point GM doesn't have them since the new Turbo car is out and has different seats. The Diff or Diff equipped tranny is no problem...

Anyway... back on topic. Maybe I'll just hold off for now on the bar. If anyone has leads on stuff....I'm all ears

Since I'm one of maybe 1 or two guys out there serious about driving the DS prepped car, there's not alot of a pool to draw from.

 

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS

Darkhelmet:

As far as HOW I DRIVE.....

. I have to feather it the entire time.

.

This may be the problem right there.  Instead of feathering the throttle, try backing up from WOT to about 1/2 throttle, or whatever it takes to get it hooked up.  And then hold it there.  Once the car is hooked up, roll back into WOT.  Don't go from WOT to NOT back and forth.  AND, more importantly, try waiting just a little longer to get on the throttle.  Also, what tires are you running?

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Jeremy Foley
2001 Subaru 2.5RS Retired G-Stock Autocross Beast
2003 Evo 8 Modded Daily Driver
2004 RX-8 Current Borrowed B-Stock Killer

President
Team if you can't beat them-Join them!

yes... by feathering... I should've elaborated that it's not from on/off..

 Its always 1/2 throttle with little input in either direction to get it to rotate.

it's WOT as soon as the car is straight... and rinse and repeat from there.

 

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS

Brian and I have discussed this before. 

 I suddenly have myself with some free time I didn't really want and need to fill it, so here's my take:  I don't know if it'll work or not, and I'm sure you won't get a consensus on the idea.  I see both pro's and con's for a bigger bar and for a stock bar, the question is which ultimately makes the car fastest and/or easiest to drive fastest?

 I think the idea has merit, but only when a limited slip is added and only will testing prove it out.  I'm torn, and having driven Brian's Cobalt I know it's a tire fryer, and needs no more help in that department which a bigger bar in theory could make worse.  That said it's sooo bad, and if I recall the stock front bar is not what we'd normally call FWD.  I don't know it would hurt much in terms of wheelspin. 

 I have to tell you from what I recall having driven it about a year ago now, it was pretty well balanced for a FWD car, probably one of the best since the Neon ACR.  I can't tell you how tire wear is, but I think it's not bad and the car certainly turns pretty well as is.  And remember I drove it sans the Koni's, and also on A3S05's and the tires themselves I'm sure have changed the balance.

 My opinion has been, and remains that a front bar might work, but that the LSD is the key and it's desperately needed anyway.  I know the bar is cheaper, but I don't see it helping w/o a LSD.

Brian knows I sell parts, because he is a customer...  but a bigger front bar for this car, at this time, is not a part I want to sell him at this time for the above reasons. 

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Sam Strano
Strano Performance Parts
814-849-3450

Thanks Sam :)

I've become much more comfortable in the car and I think I trust it more now than a year ago. I DID have the A3S05s on it at the time, and A6s are shipping here as I type.

I'm still considering the LSD ( or LSD tranny ) if I can find the Recaro seats I need to make the conversion legal since it was a package at that time. If I can't find them... I'm SOL.

BTW: I'm not even concerned about going the cheapest route... those seats are what's holding me back.. not about affording them.. it's about FINDING them...

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS

Seriously, don't throw more money at that car.  If the bar makes it worse, it will be a pain to remove.  On the other hand, I can never say no to consumable sticky rubber

Hmmmm

 Point noted Randy :)

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Brian Huber
06 Cobalt SS-SC (retired to DD Duty )
02 Z06 ( Whole new ball o' wax )
#??SS