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Another thread prompted me to put some thought into the FJR program.  Inclusion into Nat's has promted this.  Thinking about the program overall, I ended up writing the following letter to the SEB.  I am including this to prompt discussion, not bash kids or the karts program.  I am honestly more concerned with the overall purpose and direction of the classes.  Well, here it is...discuss....

 To:  SEB

I am writing to express my opinion on the future direction of the Formula Jr 
classes as related to inclusion into the National Championships.  Kindly let me 
state that I am a parent who participated in FJ with my daughter for a couple 
years.  She competed at several Pro's, Tours, and Divisional events in the short 
time she drove "borrowed" karts.  I will also note that I am a very strong 
supporter and advocate for these classes.  They serve a wonderful purpose and 
are very important to SCCA's efforts.....at the local level. 
 
I feel that these classes serve the main purpose of increasing membership by 
encouraging family participation, which most often happens at the local level.  
I feel the core values for these classes should be represented by the SCCA as 
places to learn good sportsmanship, to have fun, learn to drive, and to 
participate with your family.  "Competition" and "winning" should not be the 
main focus.  To that end, I feel it is unwise to offer National Championships 
and Pro Championships to small children in these formative classes.  Putting 
these huge golden carrots out there creates an evironment where winning is 
everything.  While competition and winning are not "four letter words" 
certainly, I firmly beleive this is the wrong emphasis in these "feeder" type 
classes.  I see them as educational, feeder classes.  It's way too much too 
soon.  Additionally, it encourages "Little League Parent" syndrome in my 
opinion.  I *have* seen this, and some of it was not pretty.  Part of 
"graduating" out of FJR should be the honor to be able to now compete in Pro's 
and Nat's.  
 
In conclusion, I urge the SEB and appropriate commitee to reconsider offering 
FJR classes at the Pro and National Championship level.  Tours, Divisionals, 
Regional events are all fine and serve the core values and purpose of these 
classes.  Additionally, I urge the board to accompany it's decision with a clear 
statement as to the purpose and core values of FJR as we look to the future.  
Hopefully this statement will emphasis good sportsmanship, participation, and 
family fun over competition. 
 
My opinion has zero to do with event logistics and operations.  Those are 
non-issues.  My primary concern as over what SCCA is representing and with what 
SCCA wants these classes to be.  This just does not feel right.  It's way too 
much too soon!  Thank you for your consideration. 
 
Patrick Washburn 
Member #255224 
plw@charter.net 
Wausau, WI 

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Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

I agree with this -- while it would be nice to have the kids running at Nationals, to have it be a "competition" might be too much, too soon.

We already have parents who seem to be betting their own future on their kids' ability to "turn pro" at whatever sport the parent things is best. We don't need that in racing.

---

Glenn L. Austin, Computer Wizard and Race Car Driver
2005 Ultra Yellow Nissan 350Z Track Model
2007 Packwood ProSolo "first loser" (0.081)
2007 SCCA Solo National Championships - 10th place

I respectfully and totally disagree with your opinions stated in your letter to the SEB. If these children are to become valued adult members we should make every effort to include them in our sport now. If someone with a drivers license and enough money to pay for it can have a National Championship be their first ever autocross, than kids with little or lots of experience should be allowed to compete as well. We all pay dues to this club and should be afforded the same opportunities regardless of age. The rules allow for this competition at these ages.

 

Excluding all children from the Solo National Championship competition does nothing to deter parents from being overly competitive.

 

My family membership includes my two children and one of them is old enough to race under the current SCCA rules. I see no reason why what other parents do or do-not-do to your satisfaction should matter to including children at Nationals. I'd prefer to see you opinions on the facilitation of having this group of members compete at these events.

 

I've been a soccer coach in the past for more than 10 seasons at the rec level. I've seen bad parents and I've seen good parents. The fact that we were playing rec games mattered nothing to the bad parents. We single out the bad parents and tell them what they are doing wrong, and when necessary they're told leave by the referee and in extreme cases are removed from the facility by the authorities. I'd be happy to see an event official at Nationals exert the same amount of control of the situation. At that point, I'd be happy to take over for the missing 'parent' so the child can finish the competition, but I'd expect the 'parent' to be excluded from the event.

 

I plan to bring my son to Nationals this year to race. I plan to coordinate with his school so that he can complete assignments while away. My son does very well in school, sports and more or less everything he attempts, and I feel very confident in his ability to cope with the pressures that this race might present. FWIW, there is far more pressure placed on the average child by the school systems these days to improve their test scores (driven by the No Child Left Behind Act) than there is to do well at "sports" by your average parent.

 

Eric Kriemelmeyer 

Howdy,

I said this in the other thread, and I'll say it here as well...

I feel that FJ drivers at national events (anything about divisionals) should be treated like any other national driver... I.e. safety rules should follow F125 karts, etc.  If that happens, I'd support those drivers at the national events.  If it doesn't, I don't.

Unlike other drivers, however, with the current rules there's a chance that a brand new FJ driver may be totally unable to control their vehicle due to lack of experience with the controls, lack of knowledge about what to do, or both.  An 'adult' new to solo doesn't face those same problems, as they're required to have demonstrated some ability to think and control a vehicle at the same time, since they're required to have a driver's license.

As such, I think FJ drivers should have to have documented experience at regional autocrosses (10 events?), documented kart racing experience, or a driver's license before they're allowed to run a national event.  Keep the FJ safety rules the same at regional through divisional events, and at national events make the FJ safety rules the same as F125 karts (which, AFAIK, don't have anything particularly special about what other vehicles are doing).

This will allow those FJ drivers who are capable to come have fun at national events with the rest of us without slowing down the event any more than any other entrant would, while still providing them with the training ground they need to get their feet wet.

Mark

Way too much too soon?????

Are you talking about the kids age or the development of the karting program?

The Jr karting program has been around for over 11 years (just ask me, I was one of the first along with Theresa Ankeny and Nicole Naigler)

 

Please, please, please don't push the kids out of ProSolos. I love ProSolos and have loved them ever since I was in Jr karts.

 Christine Berry

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Christine Berry
2006 Mitsubishi Evo RS, BSP

I like seeing everyone having their kids run everywhere but nationals in THE MIDDLE OF THE WEEK  :)

Encouraging parents to be irresponsible and take the kids out of school for up to a week and a half to race is moronic IMO. I started autocrossing when I was 16 (the first year 15 yr olds with a learners permit could run), and FJ came along later. 

I think FJ is a great part of the solo program, but should not be run at nationals.

The little league parent thing happens at every level. I have seen pissing and moaning over 8 yr olds at a DIV for gods sake.....it will happen. While we do want fairness......there is an unsportsmanlike conduct rule if someone got a bit unruly. So I'm not worried.

I just STRONGLY disagree with pulling kids out of school for racing. Would the parents get mad if their kid was skipping school to go to the beach or where ever?  If yes then this is no different. If not, ya need parenting classes ;)  

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David Hedderick
Pearland (Houston), TX
01 CRG YZ125 (FOR SALE! $2500)
08 Mazda 3s
02 Mazda Protege (automatic tow vehicle)
92 Miata SE - Fun half-arsed STS2 Car

The time spent out side of school for this activity will be spent as a family with supervision. There will not be a week + of classes missed for my child, as we are not attending the Pro Finale. The school system is OK with this sort of activity and there are ways to go about accomplishing it. They have online access to assignments, and tests can be rescheduled and taken at a later date. With proper preparation, responsible parents will ensure that their child does not miss a step at school. Your assertion that this is similar to skipping school to go to the beach is ridiculous and unfounded and you should take that comment back or edit it out of your post. If a child disappeared from home and school for a week and a half they would be reported missing and possibly Amber Alerts would be activated to find them. That is no joke and completely not the case with families choosing to do an activity together in September, with the SCCA.

 

I do fully support moving the Pro Finale and Nationals to August so that more families can attend and make the week plus a real family vacation together.

 

Eric Kriemelmeyer

 

 

 

RaceChickSolo2:

Way too much too soon?????

Are you talking about the kids age or the development of the karting program?

Christine,

"Too much too soon" refers to my belief that offering a "National Championship" to an 8 year old kid to too much.  Too soon meaning that, in general, they are pretty young for that. I know I'll take heat for saying that, because I know every kid is different. I'm sorry that some people have a different view on this, but I feel it promotes the wrong values, does not contribute to the core principle and mission of the class, and could create an environment that emphasizes competition.  "Ok Johnny, let's go to the autocross and have some fun today.  BTW, you really need to work on your slalom...you want to win the National Championship, now don't you???"  Like I said, just doesn't feel right to me.

When Fjr was initially created, I thought "Fantastic, now parents have a place for their kids to play together as a family."  Neat, we'll put 'em in karts, and let them putter around and they get to do what their parents are doing, they will have a ball and become autocrossers themselves when they get older.  Maybe it was just me, but I did not imagine that it was meant to be a competitive class with lots of rules, high buck motors, protests, trophies, and stuff like that.  More of like a fun way to educate and involve our children...run something cheap and simple so it doesn't cost parents a lot, maybe give them all a trinket or trophy for participating.  Then the classing split, and people appeared to be taking this to a serious, high level of competition.  I thought, "What?  The parents want *more* classes?  Why?  Aren't they happy enough that their kid has a place to have fun?"  Now it's a competition thing.  Now I'm hearing about $3,000 motors and we're on the way to dangling a National Championship in front of them.  C'mon...I thought this was simply a way to help the membership by inviting families to play together. 

Again, perhaps I am the only person who thought this way about why these classes exist.

---

Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

Good points, but Kart racing outside of SCCA has championship competition already, so kids are being prepped already for racing careers if they enter Karting's ladder system.

 Now does SCCA want to join into this frame of thinking as we don't let kids run in our club and rally events?

 

 

I understand what you intend to say but you have to be very carful with how you word it.  To me the letter that you wrote to the SEB says that FJ should not run at any National Tour or ProSolo.  FR has run at these events for many years.  I think (and I am just guessing so correct me if I'm wrong)  that you are actually talking about the ProSolo Finale and Nationals.  I completely disagree with any argument that kids should not run at regular Pros and Tours, there has never been a problem before, why is there suddenly one now?   As for the Nationals thing, here it goes...

They are not getting a jacket or the title as national champion.  I think that you are not trusting people enough to properly handle the situation. (or maybe I am just too much of an optimist)  That strong sense of comradere that comes with national competition does not apply to just the "Adult classes."   All of the kids I raced with hung out during the rest of the weekend and kept ourselves busy and stayed out of the way of the adults competition, we had comradere no matter who won that weekend.  If there is something wrong with the kids running at Nationals it certainly sounds like you are saying its because the responsible adults act like little kids.  Don't leave the kids out because some parent, somewhere might act stupid.

I remember missing the first week of school several times as a kid because I went to nationals and that was before the junior karting program was put in place.  It wasn't just a trip to race cars, it was a family vacation.  We always worked it out with my tachers beforehand.  Positive Reinforcement, make it a reward for doing well in school and staying out of trouble.  If someone is trailering their car out to Nationals and has a hotel room for themselves already, the additional cost for bringing the kids is not really anything.

 As for the classing I think you are listening to the rumor mill too much. At one point before all of the rules were in place I had a Briggs and Straton Raptor Motor and someone else in my region had a more powerful motor and so he won all of the time regardless of how well I drove.  as a kid that doesn't quite seem fair.  Maybe there are still details to be worked out to make the classing fair, the motors cheap, etc.  but that is a "rules thing", not a "don't let them run" thing.  Every class has a problem with rules and they are constantly being addressed.  The karters have their own Yahoo Groups account where they can discuss this stuff and give thier Ideas to the SEB. (as opposed to the adults who just argue back and forth on these forums until you end up with a 33 page long post that has resulted in status quo for now)  hehe, just imagine how many classes would not get to run if we said "If the rules aren't fair to everyone and perfect, you cant run"  hmmm....BSP, DSP, maybe HS and GS, a lot of the preps and mods...

I guess what I am saying is that as a kid I never understood why Nationals was an adult only race when it kinda seemed like just another Tour event.  If they don't get the title of National Champion, or a Jacket, or their name in the back of a book, how is it any different than a regular Tour? 

Don't  think you are the first one to be concerend with aggresive parents putting too much pressure on the kids.  If we are going by rumors then I heard a roumor that maybe (at Nationals) the parents would be banned from the Jr karting grid and youth stewards would watch over the kids and mabe a couple people that know how to work on karts could be on hand.  That way there is no pressure on the kids to "win that championship".  Still, just a rumor that I heard, but I don't think they are turning a blind eye to the idea of pushy parents.

Sorry this post is kinda long but I kinda have a unique perspective on this disscussion (I don't like arguing, I'm too passive agressive)

Christine Berry

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Christine Berry
2006 Mitsubishi Evo RS, BSP

Christine,

Thank you for your perspective as a competitor.  You are well versed and have made several good points.  Despite how it may sound, I am not overly concerned with how people handle the situation, as you have said.  None of my business, and it is not my intent to try to "control" what other people do.  The association with other kart racing series was another well made point, and one I hadn't considered.

I am simply reconciling my perception of the intent and purpose of the class with reality, or with what the majority wants.  My perception is simply my opinion and has no bearing on what will or won't happen...it's just an opinion.  I felt like seeing how other people look at it, and appreciate your thoughts.

---

Patrick Washburn
STU Evo
www.winghats.com

First off, we all as parents make what we feel are appropriate decisions for the benefit of our children.

I fall more on Pat's side of the argument though, where FJR, at least way back when, WAS supposed to be a participation tool only.  I suppose it was inevitable that some element of competition was going to sneak in, but it was never supposed to encourage being an entry-level path to F1.

I have voiced elsewhere that there are cost containment issues which should start being considered.  $3000 motors? That's what I have invested in my EP Honda engine.  I paid $650 for the old Margay sprint chassis, complete with a built Raptor 5 years ago.  Add in the cost of a starter, YHC's and several miscellaneous accessories, and maybe $1000 got spent.  My kids have run locals, divisionals , as well as Tours and Pro's with that package in that timeframe, and had a blast doing it, even when frequently getting beat by those throwing more resources at FJR, along with being able to run at minimum where as my now 5'-7" 145lb 12 year old has always been at a weight disadvantage.  This was what I thought was playing fair with the core values of the program.

Now that the big kid is 12, and that Raptor of indeterminate age getting old, last month I did spring coin loose for a World Formula.  Total cost of the conversion?  At least $1500.  Am I questioning my wisdom?  You betcha.  The program needs to find a balance somewhere.
 

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Rob Foley

no more Celica
86 Civic EP

I agree with everything that everyone has said,,     "So"

I'm going to throw some facts/Questions out here that I believe are important.

1) The FJr program was originally started as a "participation exercise", primarily for the kids of experienced autocrossers.  These early adopters/leaders did a wonderful job at constructing a healthy environment for their kids to learn the sport and grow in the community.  Christine and the Berry Family are shining examples of this early effort.

2) The early program was fragmented, but very solid in the few areas where it was offered. 

3) Most of these early adopters (kids and parents) have now moved on to real cars/F125 or other sports (softball, soccer, dating, slacking...).  As a result, we have lost the leadership and commensurate experience of that group of people.  At the same time, we made the program national in scope.  So, we went bigger, but with less infrastructure.

4) I was an SEB liaison to the KAC for three years of my five year term.  I am intimately familiar with the issues that resulted from this shift and helped push through some efforts to fix it.  In particular, we found that few regions/Youth Stewards really knew the rules, especially those that affected safety.  A Youth Steward at the typical 1 or 2 kart regional was just some parent, who may not even have been an experienced autocrosser, and who may not even know the FJr-specific rules.

6) Kids are not adults and do not think like adults.  We've had incidents where kids did not know where the end of the course was and just kept hard on the throttle past the finish and into something hard.  We've also had kids go into curbs while still on the course, because they got confused out there.  Futhermore, adults aren't used to kids being around in karts, and we've had at least one incident of a kart being run over by an adult in a tow vehicle (kid luckily jumped to safety).   These point out that integrating kids into this sport safely is not easy.

5) To help this, we wrote the Kart manual.  It is not a rulebook, but rather of collection of best practices based on the rules so Youth Stewards will know how to actually do their job (and participants will now what is expected).  But, has it been updated?  Is it properly marketed so that all FJr participants across the country know what's there?

6) We also pushed for licensing of Youth Stewards so that we'd have a way to directly contact those people to make them aware of rules changes and share info on what each region is doing.  Has this mailing list ever been utilized, though?  Are we sharing current info?

7) We have a huge opportunity to build a viable FJr program nationally, but it needs more leadership and communication to be safe and effective.  Having it at Tours/Pros, does help in demonstrating the right way to do things.  Does having it at Nats do that?

I see parents all excited about being able to enable their child to compete for a national championship.  I'd like to see some of that parental energy put into leadership for the program across the country.

--Andy 

PS: It has been 18 months since I've been directly involved with FJr, so I'd be happy to hear that all of this is old news and has changed for the better. 

The Rotax FR125 is a modular motor that is used from the beginning of a karter's hobby (6yrs old) to the pinnacle of World Competition...same motor, with changes along the way.  It's runs substantially longer than most motors before a rebuild, and if bought strictly for Solo, would run through all of Formula Junior without a rebuild...if you wanted.  The motor is sealed and not run at the ragged edge, so it has a long shelf life.  It's a push button start (like the World Formula) which allows us to move in the direction of simplicity and less need for the parent to run around with a starter (and sweat).  It is $3000 brand new and the used market has plenty for $1500 (including carb, exhaust, etc.) which is the way most people purchase them because of the long life and monitored maintenance.

The two motors being looked at are the Micromax (FJB) configuration and the Minimax (FJA) configuration.  The Sprint track (road course for karts) is often used to gauge where motors belong as it has straights and many turns tighter than Solos, and then weight is added if necessary to help even things out:

A) Micromax is a 6.7hp configuration, the other most used motors in FJB are around 9hp.  The Comer K80 (8-9), the Yamaha KT100 (9hp), and the World Formula (restricted to 9hp?).  The Micromax is more torquey than the Comer and Yamaha but less torquey than the World Formula.  At the Sprint track, the Micromax class (235lbs) turns times a hair slower than the lap time of the Comer motor (235lbs).  In Solo, the Comer has to be 250lbs, so that is where the Micromax will need to be until further observations are made.

B) Minmax is a 13.5hp configuration, the other motors mainly used in FJA are the Yamaha KT100 (16hp), and the World Formula (13.5hp).  The Minimax is more torquey than the Yamaha but less torquey than the World Formula.  At the Sprint track, the Minimax class (265lbs) turns times nearly identical to the Yamaha Junior Supercan class (305lbs).  In Solo, the same Yamaha runs 295lbs (10lbs less) and the Minimax will run 275lbs (10lbs more or a 20lbs difference) to insure that the motor is not dominant.  This is where the Minimax motor will need to be until further observations are made.

- Neither of these motors have a launch advantage as the Rotax clutch is not adjustable and comes in very low (2k), not allowing the motor to get into the revs prior to leaving the line.

Brian 

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**3Generacing**
Craig: STX MINI Cooper S
Jane: A Stock Boxster S
Brian: F125 2000 CTS/Honda
Lisa: F125 2002 CTS/Honda
Julian: CRG Cadet/KT100
Carson: Intrepid Cadet/KT100

Howdy,

Andy Hollis:

6) Kids are not adults and do not think like adults.  We've had incidents where kids did not know where the end of the course was and just kept hard on the throttle past the finish and into something hard.  We've also had kids go into curbs while still on the course, because they got confused out there.  Futhermore, adults aren't used to kids being around in karts, and we've had at least one incident of a kart being run over by an adult in a tow vehicle (kid luckily jumped to safety).   These point out that integrating kids into this sport safely is not easy.

Were the kids that hit things kids that were just starting out or kids that had been doing it for a while?  Percentage-wise, how did the # of incidents compare with adults hitting things?

Over the weekend I was at the local kart track and I watched a little girl (4.5 years old I think it was?) who drove straight off over a hill (not injured), clearly not particularly in control of the vehicle.  She was comfortable enough with a steering wheel, but this was literally the very first time she'd ever been in something that had separate gas & brake pedals, or something where the gas and brake pedals actually did much of anything.

However, two sessions in she was doing _much_ better.  Still quite a ways to go, but _MUCH_ better.  I'd imagine in another three or four days of practice sessions, she'd be just fine and would be controlling the kart unconsciously.

Another young kid was there as well, sharing the same track.  He was a little older, and _way_ more comfortable with the kart.  He had a little more experience than the younger girl, but not a lot more.  He was clearly totally capable of controlling the kart and getting it to go generally where he wanted (modulo sliding around / pushing beyond the limit), but wasn't so great with anticipating issues.  He once was coming around to lap the little girl (they were the only two out there on a private test day) and clearly didn't think about how that would occur until too late, and had to take to the grass to avoid her.  I'd be comfortable with him on an autox course though... I've seen novice autoxers do similar things.

Anyway, I'm asking these questions because to me, kids at national events should be treated like national competitors in every way including safety rules... The problems & delays I see with FJ at national events are all due to the very strict safety rules, and if we could relax those back to what F125 uses safely, I think that would be a big help.  To do that, I think there needs to be some training for the FJ kids in question, probably just illustrating experience at autox events.

But as long as FJ drivers have to be treated so differently in terms of safety, I don't think its reasonable to allow them to run national events past the divisional level.

Mark

marka:

Were the kids that hit things kids that were just starting out or kids that had been doing it for a while? 

One was experienced for sure (curb incident), and I don't recall on the other.  But even for inexperienced folks, there are things that a Youth Steward is supposed to do before that kid ever gets on course.  But many of those things don't happen regionally.  Heck, I don't usually see them happen at Tours, either.  To wit:

3. Conduct a Junior Drivers’ meeting that emphasizes safety, responsibility and event procedures.
4. Conduct a Junior Driver vehicle orientation session prior to competition runs for inexperienced drivers.
5. Lead at least two mandatory course walks for inexperienced Junior Drivers.

With adults in cars we take the driver's license as a minimum certification of knowledge of operating a motor vehicle.  We have nothing like that for FJr.  All we have is the above, which seldom seems to happen.  That said, there are some regions that do a wonderful job at this. 

 

Percentage-wise, how did the # of incidents compare with adults hitting things?

There was one year where the number was high, and the types of things severe, when you looked at it per capita.  IOW, how much happened per # of participants.  That's what got me personally motivated to try and do something.

Over the weekend I was at the local kart track and I watched a little girl (4.5 years old I think it was?) who drove straight off over a hill (not injured), ...

[snip]

 To do that, I think there needs to be some training for the FJ kids in question, probably just illustrating experience at autox events.

It is supposed to happen, but the FJr program is not robust or consistent enough across the country for it to always be the case.

--Andy

Andy, two years ago in Peru you led a novice walk through to initiate the newbies to Pro Solo. You made it clear to me that you did not welcome my son, to the walk. The next event in DC I was actually told he could not go on the walk. Something about not knowing what to say to Jr Kart drivers was the expl