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A friend is considering purchasing an ESP camaro.  How competitve are these cars?  I understand that on a wet course the AWD cars are going to walk away, but what about on a dry course?

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Chris Shay, 2004 Z06

At the San Diego round of the California Divisional series, Henry Botkin was very impressive in his ESP camaro.  His times compared very well relative to some of the top SS, CSP, and BSP drivers in the country.  Had me believing the Camaro was still very very relevant.  And if nationals moves to concrete, watch out.  Though on concrete I always fear diff breakage in those cars.

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Dr. Conemangler
#15 STS '91 Civic Si
CalClub

Well, it depends on what year and to what level the cars been prepped.  Take a look at some the the past results from the tours and Topeka and you will see that not only are 4th gens very competitive, but so are the 3rd gens. However, I'd lean towards a 98 or later Camaro myself.   Mustangs too are also very competitive. 

There is a WRX registered in ESP for Topeka this year, so we'll see what happens.  But as far as I know, nobody had proven that they have built and a nationally competitive 4wd drive car for ESP yet. 

The bottom line is that Camaro's and Mustangs are a challenge to drive, even when prepaired well vs. many other stock cars out there.  However, when driven right, I think that they can be one of the most rewarding and fun cars to autocross.  But hey I know I'm bias.

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#57 ESP 1998 Camaro SS
MLS Motor Racing

Major_Lee_Slow:

Well, it depends on what year and to what level the cars been prepped.  Take a look at some the the past results from the tours and Topeka and you will see that not only are 4th gens very competitive, but so are the 3rd gens. However, I'd lean towards a 98 or later Camaro myself.   Mustangs too are also very competitive. 

There is a WRX registered in ESP for Topeka this year, so we'll see what happens.  But as far as I know, nobody had proven that they have built and a nationally competitive 4wd drive car for ESP yet. 

The bottom line is that Camaro's and Mustangs are a challenge to drive, even when prepaired well vs. many other stock cars out there.  However, when driven right, I think that they can be one of the most rewarding and fun cars to autocross.  But hey I know I'm bias.

Camaros suck

I love autocrossing my '95 and it's plenty competitive, even with those '98 + cars that everyone else seems to like so much

There is an extremely competitive AWD ESP car, but it's not a Subaru.

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Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

The car that is for sale is a '94 Z28.  It has all of the right parts and the Strano set up.  

It's the LT1.  Good torque but do you notice the missing HP of the LS1's?

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Chris Shay, 2004 Z06

No the LS1's notice the good gearing of the LT1 (if its the super close early box...)

Then if you have the super tranny you can add LT4 goodness and get the same power LS1's have but with just a little bit more weight.

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"If speed kills..then do brakes save lives???"

Z28Lt1AutoXer:

The car that is for sale is a '94 Z28.  It has all of the right parts and the Strano set up.  

Is it Lonnie Bright's old car?  Red, '94 LT1 with an automatic (of course, that may have been "fixed").

Z28Lt1AutoXer:

It's the LT1.  Good torque but do you notice the missing HP of the LS1's?

Nope.  I don't even notice the missing HP with my L98 3rd gen.  Well, until it starts wheezing at 4500 rpm.

Pat

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'92 Sentra SE-R, daily driver and track car
'82 Camaro Z28, ESP, 65% prepared, 50% ownership

Upset about Stock class proposals? Get PISST!

Z28Lt1AutoXer:

The car that is for sale is a '94 Z28.  It has all of the right parts and the Strano set up.  

It's the LT1.  Good torque but do you notice the missing HP of the LS1's?

Nope, I'm not sure what I'd do with LS1 HP in my car now. It will haze the tires in most situations if you don't manage the throttle well. On grippy concrete it would be more noticable way up top.

And as far as weight, the lightest 4th gen f-body at Nationals last year was...a '95 pontiac formula with an LT4 transplant. I just don't know about this "LS1 cars are lighter" mentality because I just don't see the reality of it. The LS1 block has to be lighter, but I just don't know why the LS1 cars don't scale light, either in F-stock or ESP.

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Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

I dont know how light I could get my car.

I weighed my car again without me in it...3450 across the scales at the FLR pro with a full tank of gas and the big tires on. That is still with A/C and stereo in the car and my trailer hitch still installed. I also still have SS hood, lighter clutch assembly, underdrive pulley, and hollow sway bar I could add to get weight down.

 IIRC the 3rd gens are around the high 3100's range...never know maybe lighter.

 What was the firebird at???

John "Cleatus" Crouse

My nickname was released at the FLR pro so now I don't mind putting it in my sig.

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"If speed kills..then do brakes save lives???"

Cr0usEEE:

 

 IIRC the 3rd gens are around the high 3100's range...never know maybe lighter.

Mine weighed 3135 with 3/4 tank of gas on the scales at the DC Pro.  There are a few things I could do to make it lighter, and I think it could dip under 3100 but not by much.

Pat

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'92 Sentra SE-R, daily driver and track car
'82 Camaro Z28, ESP, 65% prepared, 50% ownership

Upset about Stock class proposals? Get PISST!

IIRC The 4th gen firebird was low 3200s. Mine was 3370 and I've probably trimmed another 20lbs since (off of the car, not me, sadly).

The winning 3rd gen was low 3100s.

Just to be an ass I asked both of them to pop up their headlights

 

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Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

3rd gens and 4th gens are both competitive in ESP, however I think it costs more to prep a 3rd gen from scratch.  The LT1 4th gens have a gearing advantage (if you update/backdate the trans) that helps a lot in low speed sections.  The LS1's have more high end horsepower that gives them an advantage on higher speed sections, so the course dictates which is better.  Of course with anything the driver plays more of a role then these differences.

BigEnos:

IIRC The 4th gen firebird was low 3200s. Mine was 3370 and I've probably trimmed another 20lbs since (off of the car, not me, sadly).

The winning 3rd gen was low 3100s.

Just to be an ass I asked both of them to pop up their headlights

 

I remember your car being 3379 (95 LT1) at Topeka last year and mine was 3397 (02 LS1).   I think the 93-95's are a little lighter because the OBD2 cars (96+) have a lot more wiring and wiring is heavy.
 

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Phil K.
2002 Camaro SS, #68 ESP

pknowles:

3rd gens and 4th gens are both competitive in ESP, however I think it costs more to prep a 3rd gen from scratch.  The LT1 4th gens have a gearing advantage (if you update/backdate the trans) that helps a lot in low speed sections.  The LS1's have more high end horsepower that gives them an advantage on higher speed sections, so the course dictates which is better.  Of course with anything the driver plays more of a role then these differences.

I remember your car being 3379 (95 LT1) at Topeka last year and mine was 3397 (02 LS1).   I think the 93-95's are a little lighter because the OBD2 cars (96+) have a lot more wiring and wiring is heavy.
 

Ooooh, soory I forgot the last digit. I should have said 3370-ish or 337xlbs or something. Sheesh!

 

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Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

BigEnos:

pknowles:

3rd gens and 4th gens are both competitive in ESP, however I think it costs more to prep a 3rd gen from scratch.  The LT1 4th gens have a gearing advantage (if you update/backdate the trans) that helps a lot in low speed sections.  The LS1's have more high end horsepower that gives them an advantage on higher speed sections, so the course dictates which is better.  Of course with anything the driver plays more of a role then these differences.

I remember your car being 3379 (95 LT1) at Topeka last year and mine was 3397 (02 LS1).   I think the 93-95's are a little lighter because the OBD2 cars (96+) have a lot more wiring and wiring is heavy.
 

Ooooh, soory I forgot the last digit. I should have said 3370-ish or 337xlbs or something. Sheesh!

 

Had to give you a hard time.  The only reason I remember is that I always thought your car would be significantly lighter then mine and was surprised to find out the difference was only 18lbs.  I'm sure your new exhaust dropped more weight though. 

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Phil K.
2002 Camaro SS, #68 ESP

Thanks for the good information!

I'm going with my friend to pick up the Z28 this weekend.  Two more question:

1.  Which forums do the LT1 ESP guys hang out at.  I remember the LS1 forum from my FS days but I think that is gone now...

2.  The LT1 has an oil pressure drop under heavy breaking so that is the 1st thing to fix before it goes on a track.  It had the motor rebuilt and a high volume pump added.  Since then it has had the oil pressure problem under heavy breaking and hasn't been raced since the rebuild.  Is it ok to leave the high volume pump in place?  I'm thinking than an aftermarket pan would help.  Any thoughts?

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Chris Shay, 2004 Z06

Z28Lt1AutoXer:

Thanks for the good information!

I'm going with my friend to pick up the Z28 this weekend.  Two more question:

1.  Which forums do the LT1 ESP guys hang out at.  I remember the LS1 forum from my FS days but I think that is gone now...

2.  The LT1 has an oil pressure drop under heavy breaking so that is the 1st thing to fix before it goes on a track.  It had the motor rebuilt and a high volume pump added.  Since then it has had the oil pressure problem under heavy breaking and hasn't been raced since the rebuild.  Is it ok to leave the high volume pump in place?  I'm thinking than an aftermarket pan would help.  Any thoughts?

 

http://www.frrax.com 

I've never noticed or heard of such an oiling issue. Ask over at  frrax, though, those guys track their cars more than I do.

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Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

pknowles:

  I think the 93-95's are a little lighter because the OBD2 cars (96+) have a lot more wiring and wiring is heavy.

I'll add an OBD2 - LT1 data point.

I weighed the car just last weekend on HPT's scale. It was 3385 lbs with a full-to-the-top tank.

I still have the radio / speakers, factory cast iron manifolds / cats, full cat back exhaust and stock size battery (up front). No AC.

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Korry
1996 Z28
ESP 96

 

 

 I highly recommend that you put a road race pan on your car if you want the motor to live.  That first motor I built I used the factory pan and after four years I pulled it apart to take a look and found all the bearings down to the copper.  The next motor I built I put a canton road race pan on and after four years pulled it apart the bearing look like that had never been run.  There is allot of oil movement especially in long sweepers.  I am also running a third gen don't know if that makes much difference.  Just my two cents.

 

 

Someone who is going to use that car needs to buy it. Swap in a 93 trans and your done......There wasn't much left when I got rid of it left to do to lighten the car.........

 

An LT1 ESP will most certainly be lighter. And I think a mid to high 3200lb car is possible. Just gotta be willing to dump things or change things even if there is less than a 1lb difference.

 

The LT1 cars make up for the power defecit in torque. Even in an auto I always felt my old car had plenty of power. (Of course the trans swap would have meant even more-always a +)

Cr0usEEE:

John "Cleatus" Crouse

My nickname was released at the FLR pro so now I don't mind putting it in my sig.

That is true!

I drove a well prepped in terms of parts 2.5 WRX at the FLR Pro against the Camaro guys (which I am one of, so is Cletus) and it could raw time with them even with it needing some more development and better tires. 1/2 season old 245 Kuhmo's compared to new 275 Hoosiers would make a world of difference!

Speaking of LT vs LS motors in terms of AutoX I would rather have the LS (I do anyways) but a LT is not going to be a dog, the smaller volume of air going from the plenum to the valve is instant throttle response. A decent LT motor in ESP trim would make 290rwhp 330 rwtq but have a TQ curve that is flat from 2000-4500rpm, a LS car can do 350/350 but below 4500rpm it's not as good and the throttle response isin't AS good. Compare that to a WRX though, and it feels like you have to wait FOREVER for the power to come on! Literally you would brake, turn in and then go WOT and by the time the power was building you would have just gotten back on the throttle in the Camaro.

Bret

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Bret
Camaro SS FS