SCCAForums.com

Impound directed inspection found that the valve springs had been shimmed to match the standard installed height spec.  While it is a common repair procedure for many makes, it is not an approved method for the Honda Civic.  Only replacement of the spring is approved.

When measured, the two springs that had been pulled were both fatigued to less-than-new length.  The combined length of the shims brought that up to near the standard new spec.  The exact dimension is unclear since several of the shims were of low quality and were hammered hard from use and had raised ridges, but the one stack is somewhere on the order of .008 too big (the other stack was so mangled as to be unmeasurable).  Judge for yourself the level of performance advantage that involves.  Still, it is not an approved procedure so it is illegal per our rules.

Even though some of the Protest Committee thought there was no performance advantage, I chose not to appeal since the class (especially Tim Smith) deserved their moment of glory in front of their peers.  I've been on the other side of that and it sucks.

Pro Solo rules dictate that DSQ at the Solo Nats forfeits your Finale finish.  While this has been waived in the past (e.g. Meiritz/Despelder), I chose to take that decision out of Howard's hands and gave everything back this evening.  In addition, I will be returning all monies won this entire year for redistribution to the appropriate parties.

This motor was built just prior to last year's Nats, and was a rush job.  It was built from a junk yard core.  When new valve springs were not available in time, I asked that the originals be used.  Shimming was never discussed, and the builder had the shop manual and was directed to only do approved procedures.  Regardless, the motor is not legal and I take full responsibility for that, and will suffer the consequences.

We had already planned to take a step back from the sport next year, and this just seals the deal.  It has been a pretty crappy Nats experience for us with the miserable Pro Solo conditions, trailer repairs, the hose incident and now this.  Most of our enthusiasm for the sport is gone right now, so I'm not sure when we'll be out again, which I know suits some of you just fine.  So be it.

--Andy

 

Was Andy's car protested individually, or were all top finishing cars town down and inspected? 

---

- Sean Grogan 165 STS Neon ACR

Sean R/T:

Was Andy's car protested individually, or were all top finishing cars town down and inspected? 

Top five - valve cover removal and visual inspection.

--Andy

 

Andy, There is no sense in diffusing a bomb after it has already gone off.

 Your cylinder head was modified way beyond what you are telling everyone. In order to even install shims into a d16a6 cylinder head you would need to shave down your spring seats topside or your valve seals will not install properly. This means you definetly had a multi angle valve job probably done on a Serdi machine material removal here is the reason why your installed height is a lil off. Why stop at this why not blend the bottom of the ports a lil bit maybe do some bowl work...And i would also like to add stock honda springs simply do not have the spring pressure to hammer shims down as you say.

 

 

as much as i joke around, i very much applaud your decision to step up and take responsibility. sorry about that hose dealio, that was f'd up. andy, you are a great driver, and nobody can take that away from you.

chris 

---

Hi! I'm Rodney. "Hi Rodney!" I'm addicted to Solo....

The other thread also mentions titanium retainers. How do you explain that? Rush builds do not normally get expensive parts.....

You must have checked valve lash after breaking in the motor.......the shimming should have been obvious....

You may very well be telling the truth but your reputation preceeds you especially for those who've been autocrossing since the early 90's.

Having known Andy and Anne from WAY long ago in my DC/Baltimore days and being aware of the above mentioned "history", having no dog in this hunt, and not sharing any personal opinion about what happened in impound - I want to share THIS thought. Maybe this thread AND the forum in general is the place for dicussing the FACTS of issue. Beyond that, personal issues should be handled personally by e-mail, PM, phone, or whatever other method rather than turning this into a flame fest. Maybe I will catch hell for jumping on this thread, but DILLIGAF.

---

Bob Buxbaum
Lee's Summit, Mo.

Most of the community has no idea of the "history" that you speak of, and if they find out, then they will want to make sure that it doesn't happen again.  I'm sorry, but I'm the type of person that you can't just apologize and be done with it, especially for a second time.  

 you want this to just be about the facts?  Explain to everyone the biggest cheating scandel in SCCA history....... put that out there for everyone.  

 

Once a cheater, always a cheater.

---

-Tyler

I am not going to comment on the engine incident as I know nothing about it.

However, I thought that guy who allegedly "borrowed" the hose was beyond overzealous.

Someone, said "If it happened to me, I would have slapped him!"

I would say if was me, I would have punched him in the face.

Another competitor said, "If Kevin came and stole my hose, I would have said go buy me a new hose and antifreeze and fill it back."

But then again its one thing if you knew the person but to just randomly pick the nearest car out of the lot and help yourself, is pretty much theft as April said.

Funny as I find that someone could be so retarded but I don't think Andy found it the least amusing.

Battle2.0eg:

 

 Your cylinder head was modified way beyond what you are telling everyone. In order to even install shims into a d16a6 cylinder head you would need to shave down your spring seats topside or your valve seals will not install properly. This means you definetly had a multi angle valve job probably done on a Serdi machine material removal here is the reason why your installed height is a lil off. Why stop at this why not blend the bottom of the ports a lil bit maybe do some bowl work...And i would also like to add stock honda springs simply do not have the spring pressure to hammer shims down as you say.

I made one post about this already on the technical side of this.... but you are a MORON

1. Don't drop words like "Serdi" and think you know what you are talking about. A valve job be it done with a stone or a single point cutter on a CNC Newen is a valve job, on a 18 year old engine if the guy building his motor DIDN'T do a valve job Andy should have slapped the guy around the room. To refresh a cylinder head for a stock/ST/SP class even to the stock angles you would need to take some material out and that will add to the installed height of the springs, hence needing the springs to be shimmed. Or reconditioning the stock valves would include grinding the seats so they are concentric, that will take material away and increase your springs installed height. Not to mention there is serious tolerance stacking that occurs in setting installed height for a valvespring. There are no less than 10 different tolerances that have an effect on valve spring installed height. There is a number of reasons why shims would be needed to get the springs back to the designed installed height, and if you are going to beat the motor like this not checking these things to make sure it stays together would be utter incompetence on the builders part.

2. ANY valvespring moves around enough during operation to cause a serious amount of damage to the parts containing it, hence why retainers and locators (especially if they are steel) are heat treated to produce a surface hardness that will not wear since the valvespring does a hoochie coochie dance during it's travels at 7000rpm +. Saying that a shim will not wear if it hardened properly, but most likely that's not the case since there is a hard spring locator between the spring and the shim to protect that.... so your point is moot.

3. The nonsense about the seals and spring seats is just that, even if the seal was not fully seated it will do it's job fine as long as the retainer doesn't come into contact with it. 

4. Unless you have proof that there is additional work done to the cylinder head in the port etc... don't run your mouth off about it. You are worse for accusing someone of something without PROOF.

Bret

 

PS. Andy the only incompetence here is the fact that if it's true there was Titianium retainers in the motor, you SHOULD slap the engine builder around for that!

---

Bret
Camaro SS FS

Andy,

I know nothing about what happen beyond what is on this forum, so I will let SCCA do what ever it is they are going to do.  I am not a national driver, don't care to be and you may not remember me. Or my son or my daughter all three of us had you and Ann as instructors for an Evolution school.  I will say thank you for your help at those and other events we encountered each other and that I hope that you and Ann regain your enthusiasm.   

Take care,

---

Mike Whitehouse
Hunter, 1993 MX-6 LS V-6
Cielo, #511 10th Anniversary Edition Miata
Deep Blu, 2006 Porsche Cayenne
Ripper, 2007 Shelby GT500

Were there or were there not titanium retainers? 

---

Once you go Mac, you never go back!

Hi Andy,

I met you at Packwood NT this yr, I am sorry to hear that you will be stepping back from racing next yr.  I def. appeciate all the developments you have done to the STS2 Miata and your willingness to share your experience with everyone, you have always been helpful to anyone on forums and and in person with a question.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your time off from national competition, and come back soon.  All the best.

Carson

---

---
Carson Au

gary p:

Were there or were there not titanium retainers? 

 

Titanium retainers were not found, according to extremely reliable and 100% in-the-know sources.

 

 

---

Brian "Big Enos" Burdette

BigEnos:

gary p:

Were there or were there not titanium retainers? 

 

Titanium retainers were not found, according to extremely reliable and 100% in-the-know sources.

 

Thank you.  That would change how I feel. 

---

Once you go Mac, you never go back!

I will not speak of any more facts of the matter out of the utmost LOVE and RESPECT I have for Andy Hollis.  If he allows me to be more forthcoming in the findings, then I may speak more of the situation until then, nothing more will discussed of the specifics unless Andy allows me to speak.  TO WHICH NONE OF WHOM HAVE POSTED OR REPLIED EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT-SO SHUT UP!!!!!

 This has been blown so far way out of proportion by just about everybody it makes me sick.  You all should be completely ashamed of yourselves and the way you're behaving is ridiculous...

 Unless you know all of the fact about the case in question...no other comments should be made or will be tolerated.  What Andy has already said is indeed the true facts and nothing has been hidden.  So enough already.

What Andy did in response to the decision by the committee was the most classy decision a person could have made.  It took extreme integrity and respect for his fellow competitors to do what he did and I applaud his honesty and the decision to publicly speak of it.  Nothing has been hidden about the facts of the matter so lets just stop the witch hunt now.  It's ridiculous!

I've been a National Level competitor for approx. 6 years now and I have to say that this year was the best week I've ever shared with my friends and family in the Solo community.   Many people know me and know that I'm a straight shooter and I think a pretty nice guy too.  But I  have just had my stomach turn and that great Nationals week feeling turn to Sh!$ because of the responses of people on this site who are speaking out of turn on a subject that until Andy spoke of, was incomplete information and a ton of heresay!!

Andy, your true friends know you and Ann for the great friends you are, the great competitors you have both been, and you both have been the backbone of the Solo scene and what it is today.  I understand and respect your decision and will never regret a second of time I've have spent with you and Ann and look forward to many more years of friendship with you both!

 

All the respect in the world,

 

Tim Herron 

 

 

---

Tim Herron
#195 STS2
'91 CRX Si

^ yeah, what he said.

...except I wasn't there and don't know the facts...but, the rest I agree with...it is sad to see the vehemence and bitterness that has been expressed on this board.

---

In slow, out fast.
In fast, out backwards.

Tim Herron:

I will not speak of any more facts of the matter out of the utmost LOVE and RESPECT I have for Andy Hollis.  If he allows me to be more forthcoming in the findings, then I may speak more of the situation until then, nothing more will discussed of the specifics unless Andy allows me to speak.  TO WHICH NONE OF WHOM HAVE POSTED OR REPLIED EVEN KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT-SO SHUT UP!!!!!

 

You claim to have facts, refuse to share them, and then tell others to STFU?  Say what you know, or follow your own advice. 

---

Once you go Mac, you never go back!

I also have LOVE and RESPECT for Mike King-------and let me tell you----he wasn't the one that farted at the banquet table---

It could have been Darrin, but being as Darrin is a friend of mine, I will not discuss this further until he gives me the ok. (Darrin---that is)

---

Trying to get faster

The fact is that the only illegal part of the car was shims on otherwise fatigued OEM valve springs. You can choose to crucify a guy for this and I understand why some do. Or, you can choose to accept the fact that there was almost certainly no performace gain to be had and believe that Andy didn't know about the shims being installed which, btw, is a legal "fix" according to some manufacturers, just not Honda. If the engine was torn down and there were a number of illegal mods found, I would be one of those who are so critical but that simply isn't the case. Andy has thrown his engine builder under the bus. Unless his engine builder publicly states that Andy ordered the engine built illegally and knew it would offer him a competitive advantage, I can't be critical.

Put yourself in his situation. Would you knowingly take the chance that you would be caught cheating again if you did it? It's not like Andy didn't know that a tear down was a distinct possibility. It was posted in FasTrack months ago. He is also a part of the rules making board. He knew it was coming and if he knew the car was illegal, he certainly is smart enough to know that it better be legal by Nationals.

Edited for spelling.

---

90 Miata/89 CRX - STS2 #90/190