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I am thinking about transforming my DS ITR into a STX ITR.  Does anyone have any useful insight into whether or not it could be competitive there?  I would think it is better there than BS.

Does anyone know how big a tire you can fit under the front fenders?  I see this as possibly the limiting factor.

Thanks.

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Chang
FunHondas Raciing
24STS, 89 Civic Si 24 HS, 89 Civic Si
24STX, 89 Civic Si 24 DS, 00 ITR
2 M2, 90 Civic GSR (RallyX)

I don't think anyone has tried nationally lately, at least since the new crop of tires was released, but I'm not sure.

I would think the 215-40-17 Dunlop would be a good tire for that car. But if you can somehow fit a 265 that doesn't screw up your gearing, it's legal now :)

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John W: 2003 WRX (#7 STX) | 1998 ///M3
Washington, DC Region

Chang,

The only person I can remember to try and campaign an ITR in STX was Todd Meade, but that was back in 2002/03/04 and wasn't near the front of the class. So really no one has tried since. Something about not being able to fit a wide enough tire in the front to keep up with the WRXs 245s being a limiting factor.

--KC

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For sale: 2006 Nissan Titan LE Crew Cab. White. 40K miles. $19K. Wicked pissah to tow with.

Jeff Brown? ran one for a while as well, as did Crembor (Steve something was the name of the car owner IIRC, they went back to DS). 

Getting a big enough front tire on the car would be the limiting factor. However, you aren't trying to keep up with a car that has a 50% weight distribution and 285's under it. The WRX, being a nose heavy, understeer prone pig on relatively narrow tires, should be easy prey for a well balanced, fwd car like the ITR. Now, will the e36 soon be the car to beat in the class? Or the RX8? I can't say for sure. I know a combination that works brilliantly for SP though!

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Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

solo-x:

Jeff Brown? ran one for a while as well, as did Crembor (Steve something was the name of the car owner IIRC, they went back to DS). 

Getting a big enough front tire on the car would be the limiting factor. However, you aren't trying to keep up with a car that has a 50% weight distribution and 285's under it. The WRX, being a nose heavy, understeer prone pig on relatively narrow tires, should be easy prey for a well balanced, fwd car like the ITR. Now, will the e36 soon be the car to beat in the class? Or the RX8? I can't say for sure. I know a combination that works brilliantly for SP though!

The E36 is going to be a good contender too. But the ITR, unless you can get at least 245s under it... it's going to be under tired (under-gripped) compared to the other cars in the class.

--kC
(Someone buy my Titan!)

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For sale: 2006 Nissan Titan LE Crew Cab. White. 40K miles. $19K. Wicked pissah to tow with.

Given some DS drivers are using 275's, I'd think 265's will fit fine, but will it be enough? I'd think the cars with more power and less suspension (E36's, E46's, WRX's, R32s, TTs?) out of the box will respond better to STX mods than something that's practically an STX car from the factory.

Go post your support on my thread in the ST area for a 265/35/17!

Matt

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DS #313 | the rolling couch of doom | La-Z-Boy Racing

The problem is finding a tire that is short and wide enough. The 225/45R15 Toyo MIGHT be the ticket, but I would try to fit 235/40 or 245/40's (or one of the rumored 245/35's) on the front if at all possible. I think with some development, the car could be very competitive. Especially after seeing how well Nate's car has been doing at the end of the rear, still on less tire than his competition.

 

I say go for it!

 

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00' 328Ci
01' Tahoe LT
98' Camaro Z28 - dead
95' 325is - STX 182

murph1379:

Given some DS drivers are using 275's, I'd think 265's will fit fine, but will it be enough? I'd think the cars with more power and less suspension (E36's, E46's, WRX's, R32s, TTs?) out of the box will respond better to STX mods than something that's practically an STX car from the factory.

Go post your support on my thread in the ST area for a 265/35/17!

Matt

The DS ITR's can fit a 275 because the 6" wheel pinches the tire so much it is a full 1" to 1.25" narrower then the same tire on my 15x9.5's. It's also only a 23" tall tire. That right there is the "magic" number. The list of compromises gets very long with the OD of the tire exceeds 23".
 

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Nate Whipple
NER
188/88 DSP ITR

I haven't been around too much lately due to family/work, but this, ironically, was the first post I see when I login, lol.

However, let's not look at 02-05 as a good set of results for the ITR.  In 02 the ITR took 1-2 at nats.  In 03, 04 and 05, one day out of the two had rain...serious amounts of rain.  I pretty much dominated tours there for a few years (except for Toledo the one year when I was running on, what turned out to be, sun-baked and pre-hardened Azenis) equalling or beating STS along the way.

But yes, the limit here will be finding a good width/height ratio in a sticky tire that will fit under the fenders.  A 225 will work, but it had better be a short 225.  I tested a RT215 Azenis 225/45/17 vs a 205/50/15 back in the day and the 205 was a slightly faster tire.  The 225 had more grip, but it was way too tall for any acceleration zones.  It was about the same results that Hollis found when doing the 205/50/15 vs 215/45/16 on his Civic.

If you do decide to do STX, your first upgrade should be a quality 1.5way LSD, period.  I didn't install that until just before 05 nats.  On the second day (when not raining) on a somewhat wet course, I ran a very solid time (vs the top 5) on 205/50/15 RT615's with no testing whatsoever and my poor driving.  Unfortunately I never got the chance to have an all-dry nats after 02.  And I haven't been back since we moved to HPT.

I did pick up a set of 17x7.5" SSRs and mounted the Dunlop 215/40/17 on them (but have yet to drive on them this year).  That setup is just as wide as the old Azenis 225, but obviously much shorter.  I can't think of a better tire 'compromise' to use right now on an STX ITR (which I have for sale, BTW!).

I have been waiting for someone else to try to run the car.  Perhaps I was missing something in setup, but I don't know.  It worked fantastic on the old RT215, but tires after that didn't seem to favor it as much.  And the car flat sucked in the rain regardless of what I tried.  Probably because I had to set it up so loose in the rear (along with a combination of a few other things).

Any specific questions, let me know.  With the right tire I think the car can be competitive again.  But honestly, with the 265 rule now with the BMW, the hill just got steeper.  I'd bring the car back out if all FWD cars were moved to STS (with the STS ruleset) as I'd rather deal with a Civic on any given course rather than a WRX in the rain/power course or a BMW on a transition course.

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Todd
Too many ST cars

"Restricted Area Racing"

Stephen Turner and I ran his '97 ITR in STX at Nationals in 2006.

 

The car was making 180whp with the Hondata ECU. We were running the 215 Falkens on 16x8s front, 16x7 rearand 205s 15x7.5 wheels.

 

The car was seriously undertired at that time. It was a blast to drive though!
 

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Brian Cembor
It's like a koala bear crapped a rainbow in my brain!
25 STS 1989 Civic Si

Yeah I ran my ITR(s) in STX from 04 until early 07 in STX.  Locally and regionally the car was very competitive, but nationally it was not.   I did trophy at a Pro Solo in Atlanta, but that was it. I wish I could have run it on concrete, bc at HPT the car really hurt for traction.

I have not kept up with all the new ST tires and the sizes, but I think if the surface was grippy (concrete?) and the tires were right the ITR could be competitive again.

My receipe would be:

8" wide wheels on the front with widest tire possible

Huge rear bar

DA Konis or other top snotch shock setup

Toda or custom SMSP/Hytech exhaust setup allowing for high-flow cat. 2.5" piping with downturn

Lightweight wheels/calipers

Hondata or similar engine tuning

Lightweight seats

Todd mentioned aftermarket LSD, I have no experiece with that but Im sure its nice ;)

 

All of these items should get you into 180-185whp and <2400lb car.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is no Hondata system for the ITR that's legal in ST.  So, count on bolt-ons and piggyback controllers to give you your HP.  You'll still see a decent gain (mainly from the header), but nothing much else will add a lot of power.

It's unfortunate because you can really have a nicely tuned ITR with Hondata and pick up some very real power.

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Todd
Too many ST cars

"Restricted Area Racing"

The Hondata I had had a built in OBD2-1 harness so everything was enclosed in the ECU housing (I paid a lot of money for this).  The rub that was brought up later would be, is the car truly "emissions legal" in the sense if you tried to scan the OBD port you would not get anything, however the car would run just as clean otherwise; it would pass a sniffer test.

I never finished high enough where it would be protested, ironically the car was protested with all the stock stuff on it in DS at Natls in 2007.  When I was 4th at the ProSolo I had a Apexi VAFC.

 

jetydosa:

The Hondata I had had a built in OBD2-1 harness so everything was enclosed in the ECU housing (I paid a lot of money for this).  The rub that was brought up later would be, is the car truly "emissions legal" in the sense if you tried to scan the OBD port you would not get anything, however the car would run just as clean otherwise; it would pass a sniffer test.

Doesn't matter.  The ECU being used was based off of a P28 (or variant), which is an OBD-I ECU.  You can't convert an OBD-II car to OBD-I specs.  OBD-I gets rid of the last O2 sensor readings (on an OBD-II car), which is a definite no-no.  This is also why O2 sims are illegal, as well.

Only one person I know can ST-legally 'chip' a Honda OBD-II ECU.  I still have their name on file in case I decide to bring the car back out or if it gets classed a little more favorabily.

Do you still have your Apex-I VAFC settings written down?  If so, PM or email me offline.

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Todd
Too many ST cars

"Restricted Area Racing"

OK so to the original poster dont do that unless you get ahold of Todd's guy :-)    Sadly when I returned my car back to stock I sold the ECU to a local STX ITR guy (along with a bunch of my other parts) and his car got stolen shortly after. Sucks.

I think I *MIGHT* still have them.  Ill check when I get home and shoot you a PM if so.

 

 

 

 

Which would be faster,  an EF Civic with 105hp, 2050 pounds or an ITR 180hp, 2450 pounds in STX trim.  I would think the ITR, but I guess tire size is a bigger issue. 

Looks like Dunlop Direzza comes in a 215.40.17, does anyone know if that tire will fit under the fenders?

Thanks,

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Chang
FunHondas Raciing
24STS, 89 Civic Si 24 HS, 89 Civic Si
24STX, 89 Civic Si 24 DS, 00 ITR
2 M2, 90 Civic GSR (RallyX)

The one that's driven better. :)

Honestly, the Civic with a good differential.  I put more 'weight' on being lighter than having more power on street tires.

--kC 

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For sale: 2006 Nissan Titan LE Crew Cab. White. 40K miles. $19K. Wicked pissah to tow with.

funhondas:

Which would be faster,  an EF Civic with 105hp, 2050 pounds or an ITR 180hp, 2450 pounds in STX trim.  I would think the ITR, but I guess tire size is a bigger issue. 

Looks like Dunlop Direzza comes in a 215.40.17, does anyone know if that tire will fit under the fenders?

Thanks,

Should fit, unless the 3G Integra has significantly less fender clearance than the 2G Integra.   Charlie Davis and I had the #13/113 STS 93 Acura Integra RS on 215/40R17 Dunlops this year in STS at Nationals.  Wheels were Rota SDX, 17x7.5", ET45.  Fit with NO rubbing, and NO fender rolling required.  Ride height was unchanged as well from the previous wheel/tire setup (205/45R16 'Stones, 16x7 wheels).

That said, I'd bet Keith is closer to right on the Civic/ITR question

funhondas:

Which would be faster,  an EF Civic with 105hp, 2050 pounds or an ITR 180hp, 2450 pounds in STX trim.  I would think the ITR, but I guess tire size is a bigger issue. 

Looks like Dunlop Direzza comes in a 215.40.17, does anyone know if that tire will fit under the fenders?

Thanks,

If we're talking wheel HP, try 120ish vs 175ish in ST trim.  Your weights are pretty close, but the ITR can get closer to 2400.

And I'll tell you right now...it's all course dependant.  But the problem is that where the ITR beats the Civic, the WRX beats the ITR on that same course.  The Civic beats both on a course that favors it (small, tight).  This is why I still think all FWD cars should be in the same ST class.  Leave the RWD/AWD cars to fight it out because, especially the AWD cars, have too much of an advantage.  But that's another topic for another day.

And yes, the 215/40/17 Dunlop fits fine under the fenders of an ITR.  Thats how my car currently sits in the garage.  Unfortunately I have not been able to get it out this year.  As I mentioned, I'm selling that 17" SSR Type-C wheel/Dunlop tire combo if you're looking for a package deal to get you going :)

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Todd
Too many ST cars

"Restricted Area Racing"

Even without the diff the 89 civic sis are difficult to beat.  Nationally the top drivers in sts are only tenths off stx and most of stu.  That being said maybe an alien driver in an itr could get it done.

What about a 255/40/17 sized tire.  Sacrifice some gearing and weight for ultimate grip.  

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Ryan K